Hi there, I don't know that it matters if you sleep with him now because you already crossed that boundary. "Denying" him sex at this point is more like a power play, don't you think?

I don't know what this all means for an ltr but if you're not interested in one then it doesn't matter. All I know is that everything I've studied about this topic says that if you want an ltr with a man that you don't sleep with him on the first date - I've read this from men themselves.

There are also couples out there who do stay together long term who slept together right away but it's not the norm. It's also not the way to avoid drama, which is what you're in now with all of this.....I really like doing it the DWD way and while I'm not perfect (I've been getting into long phone convos instead of only 10 minutes) I'm not sleeping with a man until he asks me to date him exclusively. I cannot afford the worry, anxiety, the drama that that brings me. However maybe that's only how I am.

All the best to you with whatever you decide and enjoy your weekend with him!! :)

Hi Chloe - you're a smart lady. Purposing to wait for sex is the smart way to go. I had not been on a date at all with a man since my marriage separation three years ago. It did not occur to me to prepare in my mind. I could not have imagined I would have ended up in bed with the guy. It was a surprising evening.

So wish I could go back and "do over," but I can't. What's done is done. Yes, it does create drama when I sleep with a man, since my heart gets hooked.

It may be that I have no chance for a LTR with this guy since I slept with him so soon. It must have completely confused him when I denied him on the second date. I do see what you mean that it would likely seem like a power play for me to do that - total yuck. It was me trying to protect myself and make a point with him that I don't go around doing that - but it's just too late for that.

I'll just go step by step and see how things unfold. I did agree to spend part of Labor Day weekend with him. I don't know yet if I am sleeping with him. I suppose if I don't know, then I likely will - because it will take strong resolve in ADVANCE to not sleep with him...it won't be an in-the-moment resolve.

In spite of the drama I feel in my emotions, I have not intiated contact, and I have done my best to keep things light and fun.

Day by day...

Thank you for weighing in on this, dear:)

"Que Sera, Sera (Whatever Will Be, Will Be)"

Very good point Chloe, couldn't agree more.

"It did not occur to me to prepare in my mind." Are you preparing your mind now for a possible negative outcome?

From where I sit he is a new man, a stranger, who is making you think and rethink your decision to sleep with him or not, but is he, does he possess power over you? Or is it simply a matter of you fearing the outcome of your decision, the outcome being him leaving and not wanting to start a relationship with you?

Red Flag: What man asks a woman to go on a trip with him after seeing/meeting him just twice? Has he done this before, is this is M.O.?
The decision for your life is yours, we are only offers suggestions, feedback and opinions, you will do what you feel is right for you.

If you're gonna do it, do it right...

Live for the moment have fun with him, enjoy who he is, his company, what he has to offer and do not think about the outcome just remember there will be an outcome, may not be the one you desire, but there will be one.

"Que Sera, Sera (Whatever Will Be, Will Be)"

Dear dated,

I've read through your posts and I think the text conversation was pretty telling. His tone, light and flirty, seems to suggest he's not in for something serious. Any hint of a different inclination (talk about what you're afraid of) seems only an affectation meant to increase the flirting vibe.

An expression that really raises my hackles is "I enjoy your company". To my ears, that sounds as commital as a bee talking to a flower. I like frolicking in your greenery. Some guys, of the older set, think it sounds sensitive and romantic, but I think it sounds like a euphemism for someone too genteel to say "I like making the beast with two backs with you."

The honest question is: What do you want? It's been 3 years since the ex. Do you want to frolic a bit and taste different "samples" or are you earnestly looking for something deeper?

If you chose A, let go and do the Labor Day thing. He's driving 5 hours- he likely expects some return on his investment.

Hi EboneeJones - thank you so much for your feedback. I let myself feel hooked by the guy, which dissolved my objectivity. I need hard-core truth. I suppose that what I learned is that I had better be careful about sleeping with a man, because it did get me hooked in with the emotions (in comes drama and working hard to not let it show - ugh). This situation has shown me that I am not really able to frolick in bed and walk off not caring about the outcome.

I appreciate you pointing out that I should see it as a red flag that he asked me to go away with him after only our second date. Yes, we have "known" each other for 2.5 months, but mostly chatting and emailing because of the distance...PLUS...most of our communications stay on the surface...I probably need to catch a clue about that being a red flag, too.

Thank you, girl!!!

Hi marmoty,

Thank you for a much needed reality check. I SOOOOO appreciate you taking the time to read our text exchange. It is so easy for me to choose to interpret things the way I want (versus how they really are) once I allow myself to feel hooked by a man - ugh.

While I WANT to frolic - for sure (:))...it has become evident that I cannot handle it because my emotions get engaged. Not good...internal drama then sets in. ugh. So, while the chemistry is UNBELIEVABLE with this guy and he is very hard to resist, I must be fully aware of the emotional risks for me if I have sex with him again.

Oh - he just moved last weekend. He is now 1.5 hours away instead of 5 hours away (moved back into a house he could not sell). He will commute to his work weekly and stay in hotels while he seeks a local job. He is interviewing locally and trying to move to the city where I am (not because of me). We discussed me coming down there - he has a pool and there is a hot air balloon festival going on...or going to the mountains. I told him I am fine keeping it simple at his place. So - I'm driving down there - 1.5 hours away. So, at least I don't have to worry about him seeking a reward for a 5 hours drive:)

I am amazed by how naive and gullible I can be in dating. This site has really been awesome to give me much needed "reality slaps in the face." Wow, naive, indeed. I can't believe I fall for the things I fall for with a man. Maybe it's because I crave it so much after being so love-starved and affection-starved...I can see how vulnerable I am; therefore, how much more careful I must be.

THANK YOU!!!

Dated,

Since you are going away with him, yes you have to be "careful" my question is why must you be careful? You either make a decision to sleep with him or not. I know you wil sleep with him, you know you will sleep with him, it doesn't matter really does it? Because you will do what you feel is right, si?

Either way your decision is based on being an adult

I think we have all been there and done that, most of us anyway. I have done it and the relationships lasted over a year, and the sex on the first date had nothing to do with the partings. You can take back some control. We used to joke about it in my last relationship, I asked him why did he persue a relationship with me after I gave it up so easily. His answer, because you are you and I really like you. Don't sweat it, just let what happens happen and be yourself.

Jeez it's just sex. I don't understand why you girls get "hooked" on a guy you've sexed. Totally crazy

Matt is in Da House!!!! welccome back stranger!

Robin / Matt

Suppose this thread posses the bigger question which probably been discussed before does it matter in the longer term when you give it up cause if the guy really likes you he will stick around if not he is not a keeper and should be disgared!!

I have always just gone with the flow really but am starting to doubt because appear to meeting alot of none keepers!!

Hi datedmaterial

You should really take some time to determine what it is you want from this relationship. If you are looking for something casual then I think you know the answer...enjoy yourself (but protect yourself). However, if you're looking for something more serious then you need to become a challenge to this man.

What is your ideal outcome with this man?

L

Matt--It is just sex, but women are biologically wired to feel emotion for a man they've had sex with. Have you heard of Oxytocin, the bonding chemical that is released after sex? In men, it lasts about two days. In women, it lasts for 2-3 weeks after sex. Hence that "hooked" feeling, whether we like it or not.

I don't want a relationship right now, so I'm working on trying to change my mindset (despite what my biology might do) and try to think of sex as a physical and spiritual experience rather than an emotional one. Not that I wouldn't have emotions, but I don't feel like getting tied to them so much anymore after sex. I still would like to get some lovin'! I just really don't want to feel attached to anyone right now, I am enjoying being single. Still workin' it out...

I was reading this thread and noticed that Matt said: ‘Jeez it's just sex. I don't understand why you girls get "hooked" on a guy you've sexed. Totally crazy’. A comment that would have left me fairly cold some months ago, now really got my attention.

Women have a tendency to get hooked up more after sex, because in general they tend to be more picky about their sex partners and therefore are less likely to sleep with men that they don’t like to start with. With mating-induced oxytocin thrown into the mix, it is not altogether surprising that sex tends to get women feeling a bit ohohohoo.

It is all about expectations, isn’t it? If it is just sharing your physical body and some fluids, and you BOTH know that, it’s fair game. The only question is what IS really in it for women. Very few men are that good in bed that sex is worthwhile when there is ABSOLUTELY NO emotional connection. There are of course plenty of exceptions and but more often than not it turns out to be a fairly mediocre affair and in some instances it is quite a non-event.

So in my view there are three reasons why a woman doesn’t get an acute attachment episode after sex (whether she shows it or not is a different matter): 1) she didn’t like the man to start with, she had simply run out of fresh batteries for her Rampant Rabbit; 2) a man exhibits appropriate warmth after sex; 3) if she genuinely feels empowered in the situation.

When we really get freaked out in a way that is not much fun is when a man is using different degrees of deception to get to have sex (telling us how fabulous we are does not qualify as deception, it is just stating the obvious; talking about a future together is). It is certainly not the end of the world, but it is quite a yucky experience. On so many levels.

We women are conditioned to take the blame and go ‘oh, I was such an idiot, how could I believe him?’ Why shouldn’t we believe another human being? Shouldn’t the default position be that people are good, honest and honourable? What does it say about a man who has to lie to get laid? Obvious questions, not asked often enough.

Please don’t brand me gullible, so I had my first ever ‘a man lying to me to get me to bed’ experience and of course I have learned my lesson. But I am quite sad about the fact that I am now a little bit less trusting and little bit more cynical, I liked the totally fearless and open me much better!

I really fancied the man in question and would have felt so much better about the whole thing if he had said 'You know what, you are totally hot, I don't think we will ever see each other again, but I would really like to just have sex with you right here right now' instead of giving me the months worth of BS. Contrary to popular assumption I would have actually felt FAR more respected than I did now as I could have made an informed decision.

Wise,

Very nice insightful post.

Truth of the matter a man cannot walk up to any woman and say,"you're hot, let's *uck" and get her happy to agree devil may care attitude. Which is why men use deception to get what they want with no real intention of sticking around long enough to know a woman's favorite color. They just seem to play along until they get what they want and never worry about her feelings or how he misrepresented himself, a big no no to a woman. Because if she knew up front what his true intention were, there would be a be resouning NO THANKS heard from woman all across the world.

On top of all things, most women respect themself and believe if they follow a certain set of criteria when it comes to dating and sleeping with men, they will be rewarded with the love of their live so they hold out, believing they shouldn't give themself to just any man who says she is beautiful. They hold out for the one, someone trustworthy, kind and considerate. And when she finds him she is overcome with joy and knows deep within her heart he is that "special" someone because he has all of the right qualities she seek, that is is when she is willing to give herself completely to him.

It is when he stops behaving like her knight in shinging armour after sex that just *ucks* everything up for her. It is true men may not know about women and how they feel about sex, but men know about honor amongst men, it is the very same with women, honor, respect, truth, valor rides high within the patented walls of male bonding but seems to dissipate when a woman is thrown into the equation. A man will be there for his boy when he needs his car towed, but cannot call a woman when he said he would.

What it comes down to is men viewing woman as being as simple as a man, learning from women and utlizing the same honesty and intergrity they used with with male bonding.

After all they are the ones that put a man on the moon but can't seem to figure out what a woman wants.

I completely agree with everything you say, EJ, but the bottom line is being lied to feels MUCH less respectful than being told 'You are hot, let's ****!'

But you know what, none of it matters any more, I suddenly feel I am done with beating myself up for falling for some clever guy's lies. Hence the change of my username. Yes, I am not 'wise until it happened to me' anyore. I am 'wise again'!!!

I know what you mean, I want the straight up approach, let's *uck* I do not want to waste any time on a man that lies when I try my best to be a respectul human being.

Every road we cross, is a chance to see something new. Every time our heart is broken it is strenghten at the same time with a another level of wisdom from a lesson well learned.

From there we do grow stronger, hugs.

This is the problem I too run into with dating. I have a real problem talking to people when they have a very obvious agenda. But I know the only reason any guy is ever going to approach me is because he has an agenda. He's coming up to talk to me because he saw me across the room and thought I was hot and is interested in sex. That's it. He's not coming over to talk to me because of my intelligence, charisma, humor, or anything else.

So I have a hard time flirting sometimes with guys who approach me because so often you can just see that all they're calculating in their head is "How much work do I have to put in to get her clothes off?" It makes me not trust men because often once they've satisfied their agenda either their behavior totally changes, or they're gone.

A guy I went on a date with told me that guys will often just tell women what they think they want to hear, in order to put an end to any kind of drama or situation going on. He said "Guys usually forget what they said about 5 seconds after they say it."

So, if this is true, why should I ever trust anything that comes out of a guy's mouth? I have been told so many huge whoppers by guys it blows my mind.

My ex (4 yr. relationship), when he knew I was having financial problems, asked me to move in with him so I could save money. I did, and he told me later that he didn't mean it when he asked me, that he was hoping I would say no. But he had offered whole-heartedly several times for me to move in with him, why wouldn't I believe him?
He was hoping I would say no? What a horrible thing do to a person.

Also, when we moved to L.A., I made him swear up and down that he wasn't moving only for me, and that he was going to pursue his own goals, because I didn't want that pressure on myself of him only moving out to be with me. Lo and behold, after we broke up, he revealed to me that he didn't want to move to LA, that he only did it for me, that I forced him to go (not true in the least) because he didn't want to lose me.

These are really big, life-altering lies. Things would have been a lot different (and better) in my life had he been honest and upfront, but he was very deceitful, and I got stuck with him around like a ball and chain, all depressed and bitter until I finally had to end it.

And my most recent ex totally misrepresented himself, his financial situation, his personality, everything. He's like a 180 from what he presented to me in the beginning. So many lies.

Why do men lie so much??? It always backfires. When will they learn? And when will I find a guy who doesn't go out of his way to make me think things about them that are untrue? I mean, how insecure can you be?

I am reading your post, tinydancer2009, and want to pace you a little bit.

I have only been lied to once (the case I discussed above) and even that was unpleasant enough. But I certainly wouldn’t jump to a conclusion that all men are liars at all. So reading your account of being lied to so many times, is very disturbing.

I am so sorry you feel this is the case, but I know you are a bit down at the moment, so let me ask, aren’t you painting a slightly overly gloomy picture here?

I am not completely convinced that you ex really meant it. Having asked you to move in and such like, hoping you would say no??? It is far more likely he actually genuinely meant it at the time and simply changed his story once the relationship started to fall apart. Probably was hurt/sad/angry and used this very unfortunate technique to hurt you. Don't you think it is a bit more probable?

The other ex was not lying in a cold-blooded manner either, just desperately trying to put forward his best foot to get to have a relationship with you. Is that at all probable? Pathetic, yes, no question about it.

As for some (not all!!!) men undressing us mentally when first approaching us, whilst unsavoury, really is just part of the mating game. The first thing they see is a sexy woman, they will only find out how funny and smart you are once they have spent some more time with you. Some never will, because they only have sex on their minds, but at the end of the day, it is their problem. In most cases we do actually see through their one-track agenda fairly easily as we have years of practice :).

One more thing (I whole-heartedly apologise if I am completely out of line here). If you are constantly attracting the wrong kind, have you ever thought about how you come across? Do you think the way you are dressing or your mannerisms may contribute to sending the wrong signals?

I am not basing it on anything that comes out from your writing at all. I am only saying it as I once had a girlfriend, lovely girl, incredibly intelligent, very very interesting person. I was roommates with her back in the Uni and I was totally shocked on her perpetual bad luck with men, mainly the degree of disrespect they very unfairly showed to her. We were very close, so I once mentioned her overtly sexy appearance (there were obviously other issues as well). She changed her dressing style, not into frumpy, but far more understated and very soon after met a wonderful man (completely different from her regular type) and they got married within a year or so.

Thanks for your post, Wise. Yes, I have been fairly down on men lately. Excuse my bitter tone in my previous post. I know not all men are liars, and I didn't mean to imply that that is so. Yet in my personal experience, it has simply been something I have dealt with in every single relationship, which has been endlessly frustrating.

With my ex who asked me to move in, the relationship was still very much intact when he told me that he never meant it when he asked me to move in. That's why it was so hurtful. We were actually doing pretty well and then he dropped that bomb. I really think that was the very beginning of the end. Sometimes he could be what I like to call "painfully honest." Like he would tell me outright he didn't like something I was wearing, that the color was bad for me, or it made me look pregnant or fat. If he didn't like one of my shows, he wouldn't even pretend to enjoy it so as to spare my feelings--immediately afterward he would just launch into criticisms. There was rarely any kind of cushion to protect my feelings or soften the blow. On the flip side, if he liked something I wore or did, he would almost be overzealous with his praise. It was weird. All red flags I ignored for years until it was too much confusion and anxiety.

And yes, my last guy made up tons of stuff about himself to hide his true character. It's obvious his gross insecurities lend him to feeling that he is not enough, so in order to impress girls he puts quite a spin on himself. I feel bad for him on one end, but angry also about how he tricked me and embarrassed me when we were out in public with his extreme social awkwardness. And also how he lied about doing a background check on me, and lied about my friends snubbing him at parties, when he was the one snubbing them (I saw it with my own two eyes on many occasions).

I'm just tired of dealing with the constant bending of truths I've dealt with and just want to talk to a guy who is genuine and isn't unbelievably insecure. I guess that frustration has led me to post quite a few bitter posts on this forum!!

It will probably be awhile before I really trust much of what comes out of the mouth of someone I'm dating, but it's fine because I am not interested in getting in a relationship right now. I think I just need some more time to heal and just be unattached for awhile. I'm fine with going on some dates, but just for the company, for now.

In regards to my dress, believe it or not, I actually dress quite conservatively. I always feel not sexy enough whenever I go out to a bar or a party or on a date. Especially since it has been cold out, I'm lovin' my sweaters lately. I don't know what it is about me that attracts the creeps...maybe all the super sexy-dressed girls turned them down so they're going after anyone? Some guys do tend to throw out a wide net and just see who responds. I actually had one guy hit on my friend standing next to me, and when she turned him down he came over to me to blatantly hit on me, like an assembly line! I told him "Thanks, but I'm nobody's seconds." LOL ;)

I really have no clue as to why these people keep approaching me; I am constantly told how friendly I look--maybe they think they won't get rejected by me like they would by another girl. I dunno...

Anyway, thanks for putting me through the paces, Wise. ;)

Fair enough, tinydancer, I just so hope you will bounce back soon. It is simply so sad to hear you being so down!

Like somebody suggested on another thread, considering you are feeling a bit vulnerable at the moment, just put all these dating/mating thoughts aside for a while and simply try to socialise and have fun (which you seem to be doing anyway). If random men behave in an unpleasant manner, it really is their problem, not yours. Try not to internalise it.

If at all possible, try not to dwell on negative thoughts in such a globalised manner, that will only bring you down more. Try, if you can, focus on what is good. When I have been feeling very down, keeping a gratitude journal really helps. You start off thinking, well there really isn't much to be grateful for and before you know it you have a whole list of things jotted down. It sounds trivial, I know, but can be surprisingly powerful!

I SO hope you will be feeling better very very soon!!!

Matt

"Jeez it's just sex. I don't understand why you girls get "hooked" on a guy you've sexed. Totally crazy"

It is biologically ingrained. Woman plays hard to get so that man can prove his worthiness. Then once they have mated the woman starts building the nest.

Or in social terms the man does the calling until sex takes place then the man calls "one mare time" the day afterward to show the woman he does not think she is a sl*t. Then the woman takes over the calling in order to seal the deal.

Or in man terms, it is like a football game where on team is over matched and the score is run up during the first half. After halftime it is standard for the more powerful team to run more more series with the starters then it is ok to let the subs play the rest of the game.

its not a joke -- there shouldnt be any sex involved until they are both on the same page regarding moving forward in some fashion -- people cant go around just loosely sleeping w/ each other -- its not decent and this is what screws women up -- sex is precious --its not suppose to be just thrown around anywhere -- im learning this, the hard way ....

I've read the question but skipped over all the replies.

My advice is don't lose your dignity. You know you risk turning the tables or even losing him by having sex on the second date and where will YOUR SELF RESPECT be then?

Explain that you would really like to get to know him (I'm thinking meet his friends, family and other settings where you can see him interacting with others) and it would be so much more special if sex didn't get in the way. If, like me, you feel you wouldn't be able to find the self-restraint..DON'T GO ON THAT WEEKEND WITH HIM, stick to places where you can't have sex! Just because you are long distance doesn't mean that when you get together it has to be for hours. If you happen to be able to meet up for a couple of hours for a coffee, great! The fact you can't have sex should tighten the chemistry between you and create even more attraction..don't you think? Result - his respect.

If he can't agree with you...he is the loser, right?! You don't need a man who doesn't respect your wishes especially when it comes to sex.