Cheersh, Mish Moneypenny :-)

(Here - do us a strawberry flavour and dig up my Love Mountain and Relationship Tapestry whilst I post in my Donkey & Carrot (which I think is better than the Scrabbly Hand-Mouse) - I STILL haven't got round to making templates for them and it saves me repeating myself over and over and over and over... Ta, missus.)

(Here - do us a strawberry flavour and dig up my Love Mountain and Relationship Tapestry whilst I post in my Donkey & Carrot (which I think is better than the Scrabbly Hand-Mouse) - I STILL haven't got round to making templates for them and it saves me repeating myself over and over and over and over... Ta, missus.)

(Here - do us a strawberry flavour and dig up my Love Mountain and Relationship Tapestry whilst I post in my Donkey & Carrot (which I think is better than the Scrabbly Hand-Mouse) - I STILL haven't got round to making templates for them and it saves me repeating myself over and over and over and over... Ta, missus.)

(Ha-ha) xoxo

OMG!

I'll also dig up the puzzle example.

I liked you till a moment ago!

Mishmoneypenny sounds better than
a dog fetching.

whahahahahahaha!

You've been promoted since then, see. ;-DDDDDDDD

Weeeelll...Anyway - I'm not as organised as you [smirk/sorry] so - what am I going to do after Monday??? It's for a good cause, right? [sheepish grin/guilty face] xoxo

STARTING FROM SCRATCH

Goodbye? GOODBYE?? You're ALPHA GIRL. NOBODY says goodbye to you! It's not over unless YOU say it is!

I said Think FIRST DATE. You would NOT hand over a note of any sort to a man you were meeting for the very first time.

You're not getting it: Words are HISTORY. Empty them out of your relationship toolbelt and kick them to the kerb. They've never done you ANY favours. IF/WHEN you two are going steady/married, THEN you can reintroduce them.

The point is that words are your enemy in the intial stages of pair-bonding. You should only use words like they're ACTIONS, in other words it's not WHAT you say, more how you say it...what the words carry in between the lines.

Words become our weakness when we enter into the romantic arena. Men use words as tools for obtaining underlying agendas. So there WE are being honest and disclosing whilst there they are telling us only what it serves them to say.

The point of starting from scratch (and if YOU behave like it's a new, exciting and promising first date then so will he), is that the climate which produced the difficulties, including the words that had to be spilled to suit, DISAPPEAR.

Look at it like this: imagine your relationship was a bitter Winter. The symptoms of its difficulties were your coats, hats, woolen socks and gloves. The gloves - which were a gift from him - were itchy which made you complain. His hat - which were a gift from you - was too tight on his head which made it sweat, which made him complain. He's then complaining because you won't hold his hand because yours is busy scratching the other. You're complaining cos he won't hug you because he's too sweaty...

Then suddenly - poof, by magic! - the pair of you find yourselves on a Caribbean island - for good. You take the items of clothing off and permanantly trash them, and need never mention, nor even discuss them, or their effects, again. NOBODY is itching, NOBODY is sweating. They become (scuse pun) IMMATERIAL AND OBSOLETE.

You can DO that instant transportation to sunnier climes, simply by BEHAVING like you're on a first date. You have no history (so what's to discuss?), you have no hang-ups (so what's to fear?), etc.

It takes two to tango but only one to pick the music, set the tempo and the volume and to grab the other partner and start dancing.

Really, it's that simple. And it's tried and tested. Trust me - he'll be so relieved (because he'll THINK you've just agreed to ignore every issue) that he'll embrace the game wholeheartedly. But you haven't, you're just from now on BEHAVING EVERYTHING rather than saying anything. Any remaining issues that a sunnier clime doesn't automatically blow away, get resolved that way.

Do it and you'll see.

No note. He's a first date. So are you. Behave like one.

xoxo

NEGATIVE NELLIES

Well, for me the Negative Nellies are this lot, irrespective of how little of your woes they've had to put up with:

1. He had a glass of sherry...at 11am? Hhhhh, he's an ALCOHOLIC!
2. He said WHAT? He HATES YOU, what a b*stard!
3. He did WHAT? He's CHEATING ON YOU. String him up!
4. *My* ex did that, and he WAS a b*stard, so this one IS DEFINITELY out to get you!
5. That won't work, I HAVE to ring him because, see, he's got my ..err...pencil sharpener.
6. Won't make any difference cos I'm CRAP AND UGLY and he knows it.

etc.

Hey, Marce, this is a GREAT idea [thumbs up]. From now on I won't have to do or say ANYTHING. I can just post in links and be done with it.

(Bloody hell, though - don't I go on?!)

xoxo

In fact, I think every 'old timer' on here should do one. xoxo

MAY THE [EGO] FORCE BE WITH YOU, LUKE-ETTA

I agree with the "praying". As a psychologist-aestheist, however, I term it Positive Thinking as a Self-fulfilling Prophesy. Some people merely "send a message to the universe". But what is in play is this: you spend less time focussing on what you DON'T want - which achieves nothing but an avoidance of what you dont' want - and more time focussing on what you DO want, thereby concentrating your mind on ways to achieve that as well as heightening your attention to every available opportunity to that end.

A half-attentive, or half-distracted, ego produces only half-a*sed actions...which never attained anyone anything worth having.

If you want something badly enough you get it. The ego is THE single most powerful force (ahem - or second, depending upon how you define the dark and good sides of your psyche ;-)) in the Cause & Effect universe.

Yes, especially our dear moderators.

SM do you have the one explaining how dating men are like dating animals in the wild? I have it but I think it's at work...My fav..:)

THE TEMPTING, JUICY CARROT (AND THE A-ASS-HEM!)

SB,

BRILLIANT! That's what I call a first date. He clearly enjoyed it immensely. He couldn't even play it cool.

I know what THAT was about - aside from him having had so much fun he wanted to extend the contact, on a subconscious level it was him trying to nudge you back into old, familiar territory. It was a test of your Starting From Scratch conviction, tested by upping the intimacy. Maybe if he showed his keenness, you'd drop your act?, thought he. Heh-heh and Pth! to him...cos you didn't.

WELL DONE YOU, YOU HANDLED IT 99% PERFECTLY!!! (And thank God for the rain helping you with that remaining 1%! :-))

Like Whatlie says, that gf is soon going to be history - even if she really is his gf and not purely just his helper in all this. I say that because you still only have HIS word that she is or that he was indeed going to take her to a wedding AS HIS GF (or take her at all).

It's a bit like saying 'That man ISN'T a liar cos I asked him and he said he wasn't' (see?).

Also, like wot Whatlie says, DO NOT CALL HIM. He knows you're interested. You know he's interested. Let him do HIS job in being the hunter/pursuer.

Think Carrot. Carrot that's tied to the end of a piece of string that's attached to the end of a twig that's attached to the donkey's harness: The carrot doesn't move itself around in front of the donkey's nose, it's the donkey's own movements that move the carrot. The carrot thereby only SEEMS to swing closer and then back away again. This fools the donkey, though. Every time he cranes his neck forward to get a bite, he causes the carrot to in turn swing away...but always in split-second delayed reaction fashion so that the donkey's lips ALMOST touch the carrot before it swings tantalisingly away again. In fact, it's when the donkey makes a HUGE lurch for the carrot that it swings more violently away and then swings just as violently back again...this time bumping into the donkey's mouth. The donkey has just time enough to take a tiny bite. There's his increased motivation to lurch even harder...and harder....

IOW: You only ever REACT. Positively. To a lurch that HE makes. But momentarily to encourage another lurch.

Geddit?

Teej, I have no idea where that is and, frankly, I have WAAAAY too many posts to go through. If you've got it at work, can you put it in tomorrow peas/tar?

Definitely every veteran should put their own well-received words of wisdom in here, too.

Come on, gals?! Saves us repeating ourselves.

This is good admin!

xoxo

THE MARATHON RUNNER'S CREED
(I can't believe I found this one....well yes I can...)

Paperflower.....
I see nothing wrong with taking the time necessary,
to sort through a dating dilemna, relationship dilemna, etc.

We never ever know what a man will bring to the table upon meeting them and getting to know them in the first few weeks and months of interacting.

To dismiss a man based on behavior you don't understand is hasty.
If you have been on more than a few dates and know you made a connection, then something obviously took place between the two of you.
All men are not jerks, creeps, players, dicks (as someone here is calling her ex which I think is in very poor taste), etc!
They are human beings with feelings and emotions and careers and families.....who knows what else in their life.

To "give" to them the gift of understanding and patience could be the greatest gift a woman could give...IMHO! And if this is countered with wisdom we receive from others who are willing to take the time to offer a thought or two based on their study or experience, then we are much better for having taken the time to listen and work through some of these dilemnas. What is there to lose????

Are you worried about "time spent" and refer to it as wasting your time??? It is just a small bit of your life.....and regardless of the outcome.....you have learned!....and possibly will gain a partner that you and he will both stick with through the worst of times.

Marcianne

I can't believe you found ANY of them...and so quickly!

(Can you put each title in bold and caps, tho?) xoxo

THE ALPHA GAZELLE

Don't Call HIm - Ignoring HIm:
Hey OFB,

Short one cos I've got flu and barely any energy:

Hope you're sitting up and paying attention cos I want you to think, really think about what I'm going to say next:

"I still haven't heard from him and it's been 2 weeks. What an a.s.s! I want to hear from him so that I can ignore him for 2 weeks and see how he likes it."

News for you: IT'S BEEN 2 WHOLE WEEKS THAT ...*YOU*... ***HAVE***...***ALREADY***.... BEEN IGNORING *HIM*.

KEEP ignoring him. As I say, it's 100% guaranteed according to the rules of human behaviour irrespective of gender, that at some point he's going to notice that YOU don't give a toss that he's not contacting YOU. But change your perception. That's all Truth is - PERCEPTION. And Perception is what shapes Attitude.

It's been 2 whole weeks and you don't care enough about him to contact HIM, nor worry that he hasn't either. *Evidently* you don't.

It's the needy woman who has only one option (him) and thereby has to keep it carefully and constantly, attentively nurtured.

Men don't like women who have a need for them before the man has had a chance to use his hunting prowess and cunning to persuade the woman that she needs a man but particularly HIM (the man amongst men); otherwise, where is the challenge that tests them as capable, individual hunters??? That would be tantamount to the gazelle coming up to the lion and saying 'Eat me'. If the lion eats her then what flattering thing does that say about the lion? Nuffink. It just says the gazelle was desperate to be eaten. The lion has proved nothing to himself about himself, nor to other competing male lions and impressionable females.

The Alpha Gazelle doesn't do that. She has no reason to commit suicide because she has what it takes to survive and prosper - in style! She has Joie de Vivre. The lion likes the Joie de Vivre brand of 'supermarket' meat. It's tastier.

Men are not retards. They are cleverer than us in this game because they follow their REAL natures more closely than we who have been groomed over recent years to believe that we can be manly hunters. Men who wish to mate don't want to mate with other men!!!

Be a man in the office by all means but NOT on the mating ground.

Men (the real lions) chase a whole pack of gazelles but focus at any given moment on whichever member of that gazelle pack looks and behaves just fit enough. It's fast, it's graceful, agile and WANTS TO GET AWAY. Not too fit or he won't ever actually catch it. Fit enough that he's made to run hard and fast - and with agility - before he can catch her.

You - the female gazelle - don't chase lions. You wait to be made to try to run before you eventually, exhausted, SUBMIT.

The lion proves his vitality, his ability to survive - in style! - against hard and cruel odds including loads of other hunting males, and you get to relax, take a nap like and then find yourself in heaven. (:-D)

Get yourself out there on that plain where there are many more lions than merely one. Give this particular lion some other lions to have to compete with. Run and keep running until only THE BEST LION out of the whole pride, catches up with you.

By YOU ignoring HIM, that's what you're doing. Running. Saying 'Go on, then - chase-me-chase-me HAH!...IF you think you're hard and fast enough!'.

But the problem is that the point at which he will be able to tell that you're only faking being on that plain, is when he next speaks to you. Can you prevent that sub-conscious disclosure? Can you pull that illusion off and maintain it for months and months? Are you a superb actress who can come across on the phone (or ether) as one who is being chased from every direction because she's Alpha Gazelle? If not then you have to MAKE IT so that your whole manner (incl your voice) will reflect that, will confirm that as being the truth.

Geddit? Goddit? Good. Get 'cruising'.

SM xoxo

YOU GET WHAT YOU [CAN] GIVE AND THEREBY EXPECT AND DEMAND

Its,

Re: Thing Getting

Given no extenuating limitations, or certainly none that are contextually significant, any human being on this planet can go after and get something realistic if they really want it enough. Imagine the determination required to become a pop superstar or famous actor (or even mere actor to begin with)? "S/he who dares, wins". That cliche is true and that's why it's a cliche.

It takes Desire and Self-Belief, from which stems unshakeable determination, confidence, calm under fire thus endurance, from which comes WINNING!

Desire
1. That you want the Thing badly enough (but not too much that you mind the thought of failing and living with that failure)
2. That your desire NOT to have the Thing is tiny in comparison.
3. Because you want it so badly, the work involved in getting it doesn't even strike you as Work.
4. That you don't fear the consequences, the resulting change to your lifestyle and increase in, say, responsibilities, duties, image, etc.
5. That this is the Thing you want above all other things.
6. That you make any fear of failure work FOR you.

Self-belief:
1. I deserve it - even by simple virtue of the fact that I want it (which is a subconscious signal that I know deep down I can get it if I try).
2. Other people get it so, if they can, I CERTAINLY can.
3. I've managed to get hard-to-get things before in my life.
4. I've screwed up before and it didn't kill me; I'm prepared to screw up again.
5. I'm as good or better as anyone else and no other mere person can totally get the better of me.

How many of those 'boxes' can you truthfully tick?

If too few then - put simply, Its - sex is all you really have to offer at this juncture in your life, meaning - why would he OFFER more, when humans offer in order to get back (yes, they do). By virtue of the fact that you aren't EXPECTING and behaving according to that expectation, that demonstrates that you recognise how little you have to GIVE. Certainly not love. You have to love yourself (like, admiration, respect, understanding) before you can share that through and with another.

Let me simplify it. Let's say the Tit for Tat rule was explicit, meaning nothing in this world was given without INSTANT giving back. You have a bag of sweets. Not many sweets, only two. It's your turn to be Recipient first. Are you going to ask for 5 sweets when you have only 2 to give in return????

Nuff said. Change your thinking or, if you can't change your thinking then it's time to examine your sweetie bag (upon which that thinking stems) and think about how to go about filling it up so that in future you ask for 5 sweets. And from Day 1.

Geddit?

xoxo

I am really enjoying this thread....thanks girls!!

You know....some days this blond comes up with something smart...lol.

reading all this is perfect timing for me. Since I joined you girls over here I have learned more than I even planned on. (hell I wasn't expecting to learn anything, just vent!) hahaha!

But, in the last three months (I think it has been that long now) It is amazing what I have gotten from this place and all of you!! PRICELESS!! and FREE!!! imagine that!?

I have also learned in the time that i have been on here that there is a time I spend absorbing/processing with little input and then a time I spend inputting (my two cents)lol!! It has been an interesting learning curve of self awareness..

Sooooo...Thank you! thank you! thank you!

*hugs* and *kisses*
xoxoxoxoxoxox

DEALING WITH EGO...YOUR OWN!
(from "it work's" thread..long, but worth it)

'It' is quite simply this: stop being so focussed on yourselves. There's a balance to be struck regards everything in life. And when it comes to interacting in a *worthwhile and rewarding* way with other people, never more is that balance imperative. Love/accept yourself 50% and the other person 50%. That and only that can be called True Love.

Look at what the ego - others' as well as your own - can *destroy*, even just in a relationships context, never mind starting world wars and mass genocide, etc.?! Now flip that coin over. Yep. The ego is an incredible tool and it's up to you whether you make it one that begets good or bad things. It's like an ADHD toddler, you've got to watch it - and listen out for it's lingo (B*stard, Doormat, Martyr, Don't Care Anyway!, etc.) - and 24/7 - or it'll wreak havoc for you. It's meant to defend you from only real physical danger, but it can't tell the difference, it hasn't evolved fast enough in line with our 'sophistication'. It's a design fault and one we have to work around.

Every negative can be converted to a positive (I'm walking proof). See even difficulties and arguments as GOOD things; they signal progressive change, a moving up a level, they're just struggles that occur when humans are faced with any change, even positive change discombobulates us. See Pow! as Ow! It's not all about you, only 50%. If you ain't got that, you ain't got a 100% relationship.

Yes, it takes two to tango but SOMEONE has to be the ONE to choose the tango music, put it on the ol' gramaphone and dictate the pace/style, right? Who should do that - the historically talented or untalented in this particular arena???

PERCEPTION IS REALITY. Good perception = Good reality, a good life full of good things, people and events. Your outgoing reactions to your own actions will then be good and any incoming reactions will thereby match. Nice People Are Happy People/Happy People Are Nice People. Happy Person begets Happy Person. What you send out - including thoughts/vibes - ARE what you get back.

If your relationship with a man is dysfunctional then that proves irrefutably that your relationship with yourself is dysfunctional. Want your boyfriend's treatment of you to improve in whatever way? Don't try to change his behaviour, change yours (yours is instantly accessible, his isn't) - your treatment of yourself thus your treatment of him thus his reactive treatment of himself and you. Ber-bom. That simple. Who feels like a prize idiot now, eh? (All say Aye!) (including me - when it's your own woods and your own ego pops up below your own radar, what you know-know-know goes right out of the window).

Short version: The number one reason all of you are on here is because you doubt yourselves, your capabilities, your loveability... you think and attend too much about and to yourselves too much of the time - like an injured or scared animal will do... you don't focus enough on the other person. Sure, you can do it on here, but that's too easy. ANYONE can maintain a simple platonic friendship, especially a textual one. But when asked to give more than that? ....

You can't play ball if when he gives it or gives it back to you you fail to give it back to him. That's not a game where there are two winners, that's a Singles competition. Gotta give in order to receive. Want something from someone? Give *them* something first. Sorry, Cinderella, but pairbonding is a business DEAL. Always has been and always will be. It's a two-legged race, not two boxers coming at each other from separate corners.

He's upset you? Why? What did YOU do? Nothing? Really - even by HIS standards and HIS pov? Then what did someone or something else do? Why always assume he's doing it deliberately or even realises he's upsetting you and how?? Ever noticed that not once does Paige recommend bawling him out, putting him in his place, getting revenge, nor BEHAVING in any way that could even remotely belie such a self-defensive and self-destructive attitude, a state of single, selfish thinking? Why not?

Being generous-spirited and kind is NOT a weakness nor a measure that automatically means you have to become a doormat or martyr. Marci is right: what's wrong with being Kind with a capital K and showing some understanding?

Marci WILL get Jim ("What a woman!") (that's WOMAN - different to a man in every way possible that counts). And Teej WILL get PH. Failure? We don't DO failure, we're women!!! There wouldn't even BE such a thing as a relationship if it weren't for women, let alone a society!

I'm saying all of this because I now have proof of where I and Simon went wrong: NEGATIVE EGO! Bloody stupid negative ego - his AND very nearly mine! But - overall (which is what counts towards their final and permanant impression of you) - I took the so-called insults, made myself a so-surface-called Doormat and Martyr, tried my hardest never to lower myself by treating him over-defensively badly no matter how disrespectful he seemed to be, etc.

If *I* am a Doormat then, well - romantically I'm the happiest, most well-treated, well-loved and -respected one that ever lived! Proper dates (restaurants out) all paid by him, plans for weekends away, seeing me for the whole of his one precious Friday morning/week off, asking to see me in the evenings as often as when we first started out (4 times per week if he had his way), ringing daily and often multiple times, far greater affection and attentiveness in and out of bed, amazing emotional support through this house move (and still), adoring gazes again, and unable to take his hands off me, even out in public(!). Let's cut it short and just suffice it to say - I do not have ONE single complaint now, not one!

Am I bored now? NO. Why not? Cos I worked so hard for it - the cleverer way for once - that I'm never going to take it for granted, ever!

If you don't know them from Adam and they're acting up even before your relationship is established, then of course you follow Paige's rules re that stage and play or dump the dud and move onto the next; he's simply not ready for a relationship because his ego is leading his proceedings (but it doesn't make him a nasty person). But if you've already known a lovely relationship with them and believe deep down you can get that back, do. Because you can. Stick with it, work really hard, do things you don't even want to do, keep your ego firmly out of it, be patient, understanding, accepting, but kind to yourself meanwhile. Let them go, in other words. But don't YOU go anywhere. They'll come flying back sooner or later (slow buggers! :-D). They can't not if you behave like that. Too irresistable an indication of what you're made of, that is: Pure Alpha Woman. "I don't love Love, I love YOU...I don't need you, I just want you... because you're special. Watch me prove it and myself."

Simon is in awe of my strength and self-esteem and has said so in no uncertain terms. He's also in awe of the fact I never stopped loving him whilst he behaved mostly like an unkind prat for 9 whole months: "You've finally worn me down - I now believe you, you really do love me". That's what he said (sheepishly), and his behaviour bears that out. He ain't going anywhere, ever again. He said that, too.

What happened to the ever-wobbling, brassic, anti-social, possibly manic-depressed, Beep-Beep who only wanted to see me once per week??? Poof! - he disappeared into a tiny puff of smoke like he was only ever a bad dream and left Honeymoon Si in his place. How did THAT happen???

Answer: tenacity that overrode even my own ego defense system's activity, a determination that meant I WAS going to get Si back whether HE liked it or not and no matter what it took!!! Takes one ego to scupper but TWO egos to mess things up beyond repair. Take their ego by the nose and kill it with kindness and kisses AND tough love. You lead, they follow.

I could have dumped him and moved onto the next. But I didn't because I didn't want to. Simple as that. And I didn't want to because I know he's special. Even special can act like a Beep-Beep when times are rough. Doesn't mean they "ARE" a Beep-Beep.

Last word. All you have to do is love THEM as if you have nothing to gain or lose by it, with behaviour to match. C'est simple que ca. EVERYONE is sick of the Norm: selfish people who are out for what THEY can get. The backlash has begun, peeps. Want Special? BE Special. You get what you deserve in this life.

Death to the negative side of the Ego - the only real Foe known to mankind!!! xoxo

(Bloody hell - don't I go ON?!)
soulmate

Yes you do Soulmate - this is fab!

LOVE IT.

I used defcon as actual ref to how I was feeling over msn and helped Mr M to understand as he recognised straight away due to his job (hmm ofcourse) ;)

WORK MARCI - THROUGH HIS (our) WORK!! ;) ;)

xxxx

So the question is... where are you (anyone) today?

DEFCON 5, 4, 3... 2?! or aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah 1??!!!!!!!

;)

Maybe that could be another thread...(lol;) self recognition of levels could aide the recovery process. I think this is very valuable SM/ Marci! Thank you xx

SM-
"Simon is in awe of my strength and self-esteem and has said so in no uncertain terms. He's also in awe of the fact I never stopped loving him whilst he behaved mostly like an unkind prat for 9 whole months: "You've finally worn me down - I now believe you, you really do love me". That's what he said (sheepishly), and his behaviour bears that out. He ain't going anywhere, ever again. He said that, too.

What happened to the ever-wobbling, brassic, anti-social, possibly manic-depressed, Beep-Beep who only wanted to see me once per week??? Poof! - he disappeared into a tiny puff of smoke like he was only ever a bad dream and left Honeymoon Si in his place. How did THAT happen???

Answer: tenacity that overrode even my own ego defense system's activity, a determination that meant I WAS going to get Si back whether HE liked it or not and no matter what it took!!! Takes one ego to scupper but TWO egos to mess things up beyond repair. Take their ego by the nose and kill it with kindness and kisses AND tough love. You lead, they follow."

Simply put, LOVE CONQUERS ALL!
Auds
xoxox....xoxox

That's it Audrey!

THE FIGHT OR FLIGHT MECHANISM

The recent fact 'just in' is that men not only feel upsetting emotional stimulus far more deeply but take ages to then calm down compared to women. You know yourself that when you're emotionally overwrought you cannot think straight. If you can't think straight you can't make a decision when faced with choices thus there's nothing definite yet to convert into a definite action (like knowing how you feel/think and picking up the phone to declare so unequivocably). This is because the ego can't tell the difference between immediate physical danger and 'mere' ego threat thus employs the physiological Fight or Flight mechanism which has long evolved to disabled the emotional and logical processors, including cognitive centres, in the brain deliberately so that a Fight or Flight mindset, with its split-second powers of instinctive-based decision making, can be employed. This explains also why when too emotionally overwrought, people get either over-aggressive or feel a need to literally run away from the stressor.

A little-mentioned facet in that survival mechanism, however, is Freeze. That's when the primitive brain cannot decide between Fight or Flight because the indicative data for each is too equal or indistinguishable. The efficacy of this mechanism depends upon the size of one's Amygdala, a two-part nucleus belonging to the limbic system that's ultimately responsible for regulating the emotions, (but that's another story belonging to Neurology). £10 please :-)

I'm a Fighter. DefCon Boy sounds like a Flighter. You're a mixture of both at the mo but naturally, I suspect, a Fighter. Men generally don't fight unless they really, really have to (for obvious lethal reasons). They tend to flood and run where the threat is emotional only. We women? - bring id aaawn! ;-D

Men on the whole aren't comfortable not knowing what's what (being Frozen) so would rather do nothing until they're sure. We women are different - we'll air our unfinished thoughts/feelings and then take it all back if need be, a while later. Sometimes we air them expressly to 'witness' them ourselves in order to see if we agree or disagree with ourselves.

You've processed it all at (by his standards) the speed of light and made your decision - to contact him with a view to stopping the rot - far faster than he has. He's still processing. That's all. He needs more time than you to 'come round' again, especially as you've been going Warm/Cold/Warm and he doesn't know which state of yours is real/permanant.

Added to that is the pressure of what's going on at work. Work is important to career women but that's NOTHING compared the meaning it holds for men (sorry, Feminism). Work, for us, is a means to an end. For men, it IS the end. It dictates their whole sense of status and self-image. Failure is not an option. = Heavy pressure.

So the last thing you need to do is undo your latest Warm by going Cold again due to paranoically viewing his slowness to respond as having negative, harmful meaning. Let him get his head around the latest incoming data (warm). Let him believe that IS the real and permanantly prevailing state of play if you want him to take it seriously enough to dedicate proper thought to it and form a conclusion ("I'm safe to proceed again").

In other words - Relax. He will call you.

When he does, confirm his conclusion: put the positivity back into your interactional loop. Sound pleased and happy to hear from him, put as much humour, friendliness and playfulness into the conversation. Put a few 'Toddlerisms' into it and call him Honeybun (only honeymooning lovers play each other's baby or parent interchangeably like that). That will show him you're still feeling positive about your relationship and its potential, without you having to discuss any of the nitty gritty. DON'T address what went wrong, why, when, what, how... You won't need to if you just put positivity back into that loop because aaaaall of the so-called problems will simply cease to exist.

What you're each reacting to is fleeting emotional responses only, that only SEEM to be a part of the person his/herself.

If you don't then you'll find yourself having to implement the DWD rules of what to do when the man withdraws for too long (which normally occurs from the 6 month to a year point when there's little baggage). ...which would be a shame when you two have otherwise bypassed the normal dating procedure - i.e. cool friends -> warm daters -> hot lovers - with your having fallen instantly Head Over Heels with each other from the initial outset.

To you: You're not allowing yourself to be freely emotive with him because of those still-fresh wounds. You've been conflicted between This One's Different and They're All The Same. By moreover suppressing your true feelings, when given but a tiny encouraging sign, all this suppressed emotion bursts out in a rush. Then - hearing yourself and foreseeing consequences of your spillage - you feel too open to potential attack, which brings back the latent fear and defensiveness as connected to your past relationship. Hence hot/cold.

We all operate by collected patterns that we form into mental models. Hence 'boyfriend' or 'romantic partner' can be classed as Dangerous. It's no more logical than fearing ALL prawns just because at one restaurant they gave you food poisoning. This is a man, yes, who holds POTENTIAL to hurt you, yes, but he's still an individual and he is NOT your ex partner.

He caught you unawares = defenses down, and vice versa. Look at how loved up and trusting you both were without fear in the mix...because THAT is why you together went so fast: no fear. That's the two of you 'au naturel'. Keep focussing on that. But at the same time, this was bound to happen: the faster you bond, the faster you find yourself open to hurt the minute the frisson eases up long enough for other thinking - including negatives due to experience - to come back into play. This is because the intimacy developed far faster than the Trust that's needed to compensate for or cancel out such negative apprehensions.

Trust is basically a witnessing to satiation point of congruency between actions and deed, a la 'He says this and accordingly does that', a total congruency that eventually allows you to actually predict his thinking and behavioural responses. Hence, although after years together 'learned' negatives can still come into play when recalled due to any associative triggers, these are outweighed by this thought 'Ah, but I know him - he just wouldn't do that to me or anyone'.

So you two just went too fast. Like we whose chemistry connects to such a great extent tend to do. This little hiccup will slow you down somewhat, which is good because it'll give the development of trust a chance to catch up.

You two have A1 chemistry and that'll keep you both trying to persevere even in spite of your conscious, fearful selves. So you CAN'T screw this up - it won't let you. With enough chemistry you'll forgive each other ANYTHING.

I am confused about this thread? What is the purpose? It looks like summaries of key posts.

and in what context does defcon mean?

THE JIGSAW ANALOGY

This is what all of these issues on this forum are about: trying to apply hard-taught, family-pack lessons of how to operate in conjunction with another human being in accordance with the greatest efficiency possible in terms of desired outcome or avoidance of undesired outcome. Then you meet a man who's training was totally different. CLASH. He tries to make you relate in accordance with his learning, you do the same in accordance with your own.

Let me repeat the jigsaw analogy:

You're two jigsaw pieces that go to making a whole picture. You get close - within your normal personal space both physically and mentally - and your innie and outie bits (how you interact in combo with another's style of interaction) don't fit, which causes discomfort or downright pain. The normal human reaction is then to part a little, inspect via mutual consultation where the clash is occurring and both do some honing down... smoothing particularly jutty bits (changing your modus operandum in terms of self-assertion) or making holes deeper/wider (accommodating their more dominant aspects of self-assertion).

Then you attempt a re-fit. That's great, the fit is easier and you find yourself a bit closer together than before. You then live with this fit for a wee while before deciding you wish to get even closer. Suddenly the prior honing wasn't exact enough. CLASH. More honing/adjusting required.

This process repeats until you have total symbiosis and harmony.

Where relationships are rendered impracticable is, for example, when one or other of you refuses to do the honing, believing you're fine as you are. That's your right of belief but don't then complain if the other cannot continue honing nor coming any closer because to do so reduces their substance too much to allow them to operate as a whole individual in all other areas of life (i.e. "Losing You").

The chemistry is what makes you want to get closer and closer. It's reward (mental pleasure) is also your motivation for being willing to make personal adjustments as suits that other individual.

That's why it's best to not rush together. When you do so the clash is too big and the pain too great. It can also result in over-extreme honing/adjusting. Far better to nestle up bit by bit. However, where chemistry is super-strong, the temptation to run at each other is too great. The more powerful the chemical compatibility between you both, the more painful the relationship will be in the first few years.

Without that power of chemistry, you can achieve a slow but sure easy fit. However, that which fits together easily via compatibility of shape, can become disconnected just as smoothly and easily without magnetism to hold you there.

Your ex had a jutty outie bit (I wish I knew the technical jigsaw term for convex :-D) that required you to increase too far one of your 'holes'. You then felt insubstantial as a separate piece at times when not connected to him/his piece. You're now learning to build that hole back up to its original dimension. He, meanwhile, without your 'hole' to make by contrast his jut SEEM perfectly acceptable, is now embarking on honing that down.

Jim playing Schtum is him likewise refusing to hone down a juttie bit whilst also sidling away quietly and almost undetectably from Marci the jigsaw piece.

Some male jigsaw pieces care less about great chemistry and have a greater need to keep their shape. They learn eventually... usually after trying and failing with another female jigsaw piece whose 'hole' likewise would place the rest of her strength in jeopardy were she to over widen/deepen it. ...and another, and another, and another. Eventually he would have to realise that HE was the common denominator. Or not??? That's where Time (and more experience) Tells.

If he IS the CD, and he is intelligent enough, he may come to that (hypothetically) inevitable conclusion after sampling only one other.

Usually, however, the Pendulum Effect comes into play - whereby an individual believes that Type A jigsaw piece was the wrong type for them, and subconsciously deliberately chooses the opposite type in order to this time be 'safe'. Having sampled the opposite type - B - and finding zero chemistry/compatibility, one then swings back to a (or The Original) Type A again. xoxo

OBSERVATIONS FROM A Y CHROMOSOME
(Insight from Tork)

Having been a regular reader here for a few months, even if I haven't been a regular contributor recently, I thought I'd share a few thoughts with y'all.

This site has made me go back and question my attitude and experiences with my past relationships and ask myself why I married my wife, what set her apart from the other ladies I dated to make that extra commitment. And I'm sure I could make it very complicated and talk about lots of qualities or how I'd changed, but in fact the reason why is very simple.

I didn't think I would ever find anyone better. I wasn't settling.

I know that doesn't sound very romantic and idealistic, but a lot of guys will be like me. We'll make do in a lot of relationships, and we'll go along for the ride to see how it might turn out, there may even be some good fringe benefits along the way, but in order for us to make that extra commitment that marriage represents and mean it, we really need to feel we've done the best we can.

And then I started thinking about the most important quality my wife had for me to feel like that, and I think it can be summed up briefly too. My wife has grace. I know that can mean different things to different people, but what I mean by it is a quality of dignity, poise, kindness - a kind of inner beauty. She wasn't rich or in a high-powered career, it had nothing to do with clothes labels, education, family background and so on. Grace is a quality anyone can have from any background and with or without a perfect body or beauty. I obviously can't speak for anyone but myself with what I found attractive, but I'd be really surprised if I was out there on a limb with this one. Dating without drama is a form of grace, it shows you value yourself.

And then the last thought I wanted to share for now was an observation on a common theme behind some if not much of the unhappiness I see written about on here. Some of you fall in love too easily, and give your hearts away too cheaply. You're building walls and rules and systems to try to stop getting hurt, but keeping people out won't protect you from yourself. How much easier would your dating relationships be if YOU made smarter choices about who to date and the quality of the man you are prepared to give time to?
Be reserved, make him prove he is worthy of your time and attention in his actions and how he treats you. I know that's easier said than done when you feel low on confidence sometimes and attention is flattering, but you really can do it and you owe it to yourselves to try. I'm not saying you should become intolerant, but you should definitely be judgemental.

I hope that all makes sense. I've seen there's some single guy blogs for people to read here now, but I wanted to give an idea of what it was that made me commit to my wife and one of the main reasons why, and then get you thinking seriously about something you can control - which is your choice of partners. I'm not trying to stamp on romance, impulses, star-crossed lovers and fate, but there are so many factors in life that you just have no control over, so please don't abdicate the choices you do have.

SPEAKING OF SEX (TORK)

I'm going to add some thoughts here from a male perspective which may or may not be welcomed - they aren't aimed at Neptune's specific situation or guy. I'm not going to defend them if you don't agree - that's your right, these really are just opinions based on experience.

Men can cool their ardour after sex for different reasons. We do not always back away, need cave time, or take ages to process the change in a relationship.

Sometimes it's that the sex wasn't that great, or something happened during it which has made us re-evaluate our interest. Every bit of information we receive about you has the ability to change how we feel, just the same as it does for you. How you act when you're down, how you talk on the phone, how you kiss, how you speak about your friends, how many people you're pissed off with, who's upset you, who you're happy with and why and so on. How you behave sexually and physically is no different - it all feeds into our data and sometimes what we have experienced leads us to change our minds about our feelings.

Sometimes it's a form of (non-commercial) buyer's remorse. You can be a relatively decent guy, but you've probably been the hunter in the relationship, and you've respected her boundaries but still had the physical urge for "getting it on" The french have a phrase for an orgasm - la petite mort - the little death. For men, the release can be followed by that sense of loss - and this can be further complicated by a small sense of guilt if we feel we may have done something you weren't really into or if you take the attitude that you're giving something away and accepting conquer. In any event, it leads to a sense of awkwardness, and as we're not great communicators, we avoid it and shut off.

Sometimes the sex was all we were really after. Some unenlightened men think sex is a scoring game - just keep racking up the numbers, it's quantity not quality that counts and so on. You all know the type I am talking about here - we'll do and say the right things till we get our wicked way, and then we're up and after the next conquest.

Sometimes your specific and individual reactions to sex change things for us. It might have been great sex, but since it happened, or the more it happens, the more sense of entitlement you may display. That can be awkward if we don't feel on the same page of commitment as you. It's not that we don't want to read the novel, it's more you've started talking about the ending and we're lost in a sub-plot somewhere in the middle. Sometimes it's the very attitude of "how do I keep power after I've had sex" which we see straight through and which causes us to back off.

There are other reasons too - sometimes we might feel we were rubbish and didn't satisfy you, which leads to an awkwardness we'll avoid and shy away from because we don't handle failure or ego dents well. I know it's easy to think of men as little more than simplistic physical urges, "ug eat, ug fu**, ug drink, ug ug" in caveman speak, and we know you all think we love our caves and cave time, but just occasionally we're more complex than you give us credit for. We're actually having some really intelligent and good conversations with ourselves in our head that we don't choose to share with you or anyone else, because we don't see the need. So we remain silent, but we're not simple. After sex, whilst we're both there with a metaphorical post-coital cigarette, you'll be thinking:

"He's not saying much, wonder if he enjoyed it, oh I knew I should have made him wait more, it's only the 6th date, did he like it when I... I should have painted my toes, my legs need shaving, why did I eat that bag of chips yesterday, look at my stomach, I'm sure it wobbled when he... hope he didn't mind my nipples..."

And we'll be sitting there thinking:

"ah.... woooo-eeeee.. .. ..... .. hey that perpetual motion idea I've had since I was 14, wonder if I used a moving weight inside one of the arms...hang on a mo, isn't there football on tonight?"

So if you've made it down this far, the question you'll probably ask is, and what are we supposed to do with all this info you've given us? How do we behave? (And you're probably thinking, why do we have to change or do anything - can't men just improve?)

The first thing I would say is never have sex when it would define the relationship. If you haven't taken the time to get to know him, and for him to know you then don't do it. I'm not saying you should wait years and months, but assuming you are looking for a long-term relationship and not just a little jiggery-pokery, then the best chance of success is when he thinks you are fundamentally decent and great to be around, shares some goals and values with you, when he thinks you're the sort of lady he'd introduce to his parents or other significant people in his life. When you have that established, then you have the freedom to be as dirty as you like and it will add to and bind the feelings he is developing and has for you.

Sex is a performance, so put on an a show. Make him feel incredible, make him perform for you too. Once you've taken the time to establish this isn't just a sex thang going on, go to town. Stroke his ego, compliment him, make him feel 10 feet tall. There's no better feeling for a guy than knowing he's made his lady happy, and that she wants him to be happy too. That's our live-in-the-moment philosophy writ large, we want you to be smart and kind and like long walks in the country, we respect all that about you - but when you're making out, make the f*** out of it.

Don't go in for the kill immediately after the act. Snuggling is cool, but seeing it as a bargaining chip or a power struggle is not. Saying "Oh my you were incredible, no one's ever made me feel like that before" is great, saying "Do you love me?", acting clingy, needy, conquered or entitled is not.

Laugh about things after sex rather than getting all intense. It will cure his petite mort and reinforce the association of you and him being sexy with happiness. I think it was Eleanor Roosevelt who said "Happiness is not a goal - it is a by-product." Well you can speak for yourself Eleanor, because I know plenty of guys who aim for happiness as a goal and work towards the things and the moments in which they'll be happy, not as a by-product, but as the aim. Anything you can do which will re-inforce the perception of happiness when he's with you, is a good thing and a smart strategy.

WHY MEN DON"T CALL (TORK)

Some men don't call because they don't want to, even though they said they would.

Some men don't call because they wanted to when they said they would, but then they changed their minds or got cold feet.

Some men don't call because they don't like feeling obligated, so they say they will in order to let you know they "might" be interested, but then they don't call at the right time to send a message that says - hey I'm in charge here, I call when I want, not when I'm expected to - you can't tie me down baby.

Some men don't call because previous dating experience has taught them that an invitation to "call me" may not actually be as straight forward as it sounds. Some men over-analyze and worry.

And some men don't call because they had a legitimate excuse, emergency, or maybe they just are a bit vague and absent-minded.

But all men will call if they want to. A % of them will not make it exactly on time, but they will make it as soon as possible after.

MR. DEPENDABLE VS. MR. CHARMING (TORK)

Hi Cheryl,

I think you are in a situation that many people will identify with - it's certainly one I've seen women and men complain about over the years.

I also think it's great that you are prepared to be honest with yourself about what type of characteristics you are attracted to, and why that doesn't seem to work.

I'm a guy - I'm not advising you this as a female, I'm talking about this from a guy point of view.

I think you can change the way you are looking at this in response to how you have analysed yourself.

When guys first meet you - we probably fall into two different camps. One type of guy, sees his goal in the early days to impress you with his attention, to be polite, to establish some trustworthiness. His strategy is, I want this lady to think highly of me and take me seriously as a potential mate. He could still be witty, confident and charming, but the main impression he wants to make is that he is reliable and a solid good guy.

Now the second guy, the charming one, with the self-confidence and the wit, he doesn't feel the need to establish anything about himself - he kind of likes himself, maybe even a little too much, and his goal is for you to share his opinion as quickly as possible and fall in love with him too. He feels like more fun, because he is trying to be more fun. When you fall for him, and validate his opinion of himself, he's pretty satisfied with that, and more often than not, he then needs to find that with someone new.

So the strategy I would suggest to you is the following:

If you meet the type of guy 1 - Mr Dependable and solid, don't assume and write him off as dull and boring. He may just be hiding those qualities a little because it's not his primary goal to impress you with that. At least give him time, and make an opportunity for his humour and wit to come out - go somewhere crazy on a date, do something childish, see how he reacts and so on - you should be able to think of something that will draw out the other qualities you like, and even if you think he lacks confidence, people can learn to become more confident.

And if you meet and date type of guy 2 - Mr Charming and witty, don't validate him. Laugh at his jokes, pay only mild compliments, you don't have to crush his spirit or put him down, just give him time to realize he needs to do more to really engage with you, and then you might actually see some more reliable qualities. If he can't do that then he's no use anyway, but if you recognize that he really needs self-worth proof, and you don't give it early, he'll probably make an effort for longer and let you see more of the real him. He may even appreciate that this isn't just a surface relationship.

And the reason for this advice? Well... it's a recognition that us guys do actually have different sides to our characters. We can be very dependable rocks who protect and nurture you, call when we say we will, turn up on time, treat you with respect and become loving, doting husbands and fathers - and yet we can still be the type of man who would make you scream with passion in bed - or in the kitchen or on a clifftop or 5 times a night. We can be the type of guy who respects and admires your parents, but still admit some outrageous inner thought that is very funny but really inappropriate. We can be the type of guy who will help with chores, take our responsibilities seriously, but still do something impulsive and silly and romatic and surprising.

Remember the early days guys are just showing you what they value most and what they think is most important to a woman. It isn't their whole personality - so give some of the boring ones and the more exciting ones a chance and think of ways in which you can bring out the other sides you want to see.

It won't be there in every man, but it's there more often than a lot of us men are given credit for.
We might have very simple needs, food, shelter, wamrth, praise, the occasional blow job, but we are actually capable of being complex creatures.

http://www.datingwithoutdrama.com/content/why-are-lights-working-engine-...

REACTING VS. RESPONDING (ROBININCAROLINA)

Yes Audrey, I see your point on reacting vs. responding. I don't think this topic is addressed specifically in Paige's book. I see what you are saying. Some on this forum may read your posts and think you are way out there to the point of being a bit nuts. Others like myself see beyond that. I see you as a highly intelligent woman that can talk over the heads of some and these some are the ones that may see you as out there in my opinion.

There are probably some on this forum that think I am a know it all because I post regularly and give advice freely, and there are others who appreciate my advice and see me as nurturing and caring. We all have our own perspectives.

Now the reacting vs. the responding. We can chose to do either in our everday interactions and I too am my own person and it really doesn't matter what others see, its what I see in the mirror everyday that counts. I can however, can chose to change my behavior and hopefully make a positive difference as I pass through the lives of others.

On this forum, most of what we talk about is how men and women react and respond to one another. In every post here its there. A man did this and the woman usually reacted or vice versa. Although we really don't have control of the outcome of a relationship, its the way we react and respond to these men that can drastically change the path the relationship takes.

If our men are doing things that we don't like, or sending us mixed signals we can react by questioning them, telling them how much we don't like what they are doing, picth fits, start arguments, have the talk, and so on and so forth. These are the reactions that push them away and send them the message that we are not the one they want to commit to.

Or when they do these things we can respond in a positive way and still stand our ground and they will listen and respect us more for doing so in a graceful manner. Reacting and responding is about the way we communicate with others.

My formula for communicating with a man when you are upset.

1. Take the emotion out of it, they don't do well with emotions

2. Tell them what they do that you do like and why, which is usually something like " I like it when you do such and such, it makes me feel such and such and I really appreciate this.

3. Tell them calmly what they are doing that you don't like and tell them how it makes you feel and why.

4. Then ask them this one question. "How do you feel about this?" and shut your mouth and really listen.

When you follow these 4 steps, you have responded to them in a positive, non attacking way and the chances of you getting a straight answer are much higher. You may not get the answer you want which brings you back to reaction. Don't react, respond.

This quote sums it up:

I don't have to know every outcome, I don't have to manage every situation. I don't have to make sure everything goes the way I want, and I absolutely don't have to know what my man is going to say or do next.

Because I know what I will not tolerate because I feel what I feel. Because I have stated clearly what I feel and don't want, I can let go of control.

The above quote came from Rori Raye in her book "Have the relationship you want". http://www.squidoo.com/have-the-relationship-you-want

http://www.datingwithoutdrama.com/content/responding-vs-reacting#comment...

Auds: Absolutely Love Conquers All. But not just love for them. Only love that stems from you loving yourself - and thinking/behaving accordingly. xoxo

FO: I guess the point is (1) a one-stop easy reference library containing any of our own or other's messages based on *tried-and-tested* wisdoms, experiences, and methodologies, that have helped other boardies to Ping! and set a better course, to save us having to repeat ourselves (a common complaint) to newbies; (2) somewhere for those who are feeling negative and disheartened to quickly re-fuel in terms of getting back proper perspective whilst disempowering those killer irrational fears. If there are any messages that 'did it' for you personally, go ahead and copy/paste them in. xoxo

KNOWING WHEN TO FIGHT (FIX) VERSUS TAKING FLIGHT (DISCARDING)

Just a one-off comment to Pego.)

I was just looking back through Angie's posts on 'Anyone Want To Comment?' and realised I didn't notice this, your Shiny Red Apple message, first time 'round (apple orgies for that btw):

"________________

Matt, good for you, I at least value your imput and honesty, it's nice to have a man's point of view. Thank you for participating.

to get back to the original question.....I'm sorry you got hurt....buck up, we all take that chance and if we can't handle it, we shouldn't be out there....if you give it away, there is always someone with his hand out, if you expect more then don't give it away. Men aren't idiots (contrary to popular belief) they are creatures of habit....they recognize free and for sale. If you put a couch out on the road for FREE and someone picked it up are you angry because they didn't offer to take you with it? Ladies, we are in charge....we must bear the responsibility!! YOur best revenge is to live a good and happy life, find a new guy, be above it all, be in control any of the above will work when you see this guy again.

____________________"

I'm so glad and relieved that someone else has the balls to say what they see on this board: out and out Cowardice. Left, right and bleedin' centre.

YES, these gals are the loveliest, most fun and intelligent people you could wish to ever meet - on a female-female FRIENDSHIP level - but as far as I can tell, most of these relationship breakdowns were NOT down to the man but to the women themselves, first and foremost. Only they don't realise it because they don't realise their own power and effect. As far as THEY are concerned they don't HAVE any and never did! Which is just so far from reality it constitutes out-and-out delusion.

No matter how popular and successful in all other arenas like being career women, man-magnets, beauty queens and populars, and super-capable single mums, when it comes to the This Is Real Me With No Props crunch, they 9 times out of 10 behave like pathetic victims...when that's, if only they'd get with the programme, the very LAST thing that they are, no matter what gumph our patriarchal societal system has been trying to feed us to the contrary (unwittingly or otherwise).

It's about time it stopped. People treat you only as badly as you LET THEM.

As Sweetie said, 'You CAN'T control other people nor other people's actions and reactions, you can only control yourself and your own.' But you'd be surprised at what an AMAZING effect that can have on the quality of your relationships and your life as a whole. Happyville here you come!!!

Yes, we women MUST bear *our* responsibility which - somehow over the years - has been taken away from us - via making us think we had none to begin with. Because only by taking responsibility can you take power. And unless you want to prematurely 'box yourself up' and stick yourself 6-foot under, or knock dust off the shelf in your candlelit hovel, then you have no choice but to risk it for a biscuit.

As far as I'm concerned, ANY of these highly clever and normally insightful women could INSTANTLY turn around their so-called (by them!) 'dead and buried' relationships as well as see them conducted more equally on their terms...if only they would dare.

Look at what's happened with Angie: she did it but did it PROPERLY. INSTANT result! She has the balls, see.

But my point is, to spell out your own very brave and realistic life attitude, Pego - you have to take back the control that was always yours if only you opened your eyes and saw it stood there right in front of you. It's the only way that the woman - AND the man - can have a happy, fulfilled relationship...one that lasts.

And the way to start is to SPILL... tell the bleedin' TRUTH on here. None of this ridiculous hiding behind the false bravado sofa whilst pointing the finger squarely and solely at him in your trembly little knickers, and then erroneously self-protecting by claiming you 'Don't need him anyway, pah!' (yes, you know who you are) ...and all that nonsense. How will THAT help you?

It won't. That was the very CAUSE of your problems. That's like treating an acid burn by applying yet more acid! Duu-uuh.

Me, I prefer having control of me and anything that comes into my closest vicinity. I, stupidly and uncharacteristically due to divorcal DefCon, let go of my power for a while back there...and evidently - glaringly - EX-Ex didn't like it one little bit. So, now I'm taking it back again - nicely, not aggressively and antagonistically.

It's called Boxing Clever...and you can only do it if you're relaxed due to the fact you have confidence and belief in yourself and your immense power.

And *he*, EX-Ex, is happier as well as me! He's - clearly - bleedin' ecstatic! He's talking Future all over again, at *his* instigation, not mine (ref last night's phone convo). What more proof do you need???

I also MUCH prefer occasionally feeling a bit scared and unsure of myself and open to the occasional doubt as I put my heart back on that line and implement my new strategy -Versus- Feeling grief-striken day after day after day, believing that I'll never be with him again, or merely 'not properly' in the way I want us to be "ter-gevah". ...Yeuch. Who on earth of sound mind would choose the stench of 6 rotten eggs in favour of 6 slightly cracked but fixable ones??? Doesn't Compute, does it.

If it's only Broke - Fix it, don't throw it away and go out and buy a new one whilst trying to justify that with pithy excuses like 'he started it!' and 'don't care anyway'. Only Lazy Cowards do that. If it IS...TRULY...broken, THEN throw it away and buy a new one - but first proving beyond a shadow of doubt that it IS o-v-e-r. That's not lazy cowardice, that's being sensible, realistic and efficient. Fixing when fixing is required, Discarding when discarding is required...knowing the huge difference between the two: the *sound* judgement of the sane and successful gene-vehicle.

"If at first you don't succeed, try, try again". But not from the same stupid angle again and again and again until your face turns blue.

READ THE E-BOOK. And I don't mean just 'read', I mean 'digest'...by reading it over and over and over again until you realise exactly to the point of 100% belief, what it was that YOU did wrong - whereby that realisation makes you PLEASED AND HAPPY AND EMPOWERED instead of feeling wounded and victimised, over-defensive and in sulky denial. Stop being lazy, in other words. It's Self-Abuse is what it is.

So if all these ladles want assistance that can actually WORK, then, like you tried to suggest, Pego, I suggest they try being a bit braver from now on... ADMIT they weren't perfect and made mistakes - some of them huge (or tiny but repetitive thus incremental) - and ADMIT that they feel as miserable as sin without that erstwhile, very promising partner by their side (as nature dictates) ...he who just happens to hold a slightly different attitude towards life and happens to sport different dangly bits...and also, ADMIT that they lost control of themselves and began behaving like hissy-fitting little spoiled-brat girlie-girls. Because we all do it.

To Err Is Human. And frankly, Perfection equates to Completion. And if you're complete then you've stopped growing. And things that have stopped growing aren't considered 'living' any more. In fact they tend to be considered done, over, finished, dead.

Romantic Relationships ARE 'hard, hard work' - on the heart and on the brain. But that's because the reward is - I should cocoa! - damn well worth it.

[Climbs back down off of reality-slapping soapbox, sticks out tongue, flashes knickers, and FLIPPIN' LEGS IT before she gets pelted with half-chewed Smarties and rotten babyfood!!! :-D]

Hope to see you back on here soon(er), Pegs. Nice one, lass!

SM xoxo

I HAVE BEEN THINKING THIS FOR YEARS and keep wanting to say it people who think they have NO MORE GROWING TO DO! SPOT ON SM:

"To Err Is Human. And frankly, Perfection equates to Completion. And if you're complete then you've stopped growing. And things that have stopped growing aren't considered 'living' any more. In fact they tend to be considered done, over, finished, dead."

LOVE YOURSELF - KEEP NURTURING - KEEP GROWING! :) XX

I deserve this:
"Yes Audrey, I see your point on reacting vs. responding. I don't think this topic is addressed specifically in Paige's book. I see what you are saying. Some on this forum may read your posts and think you are way out there to the point of being a bit nuts. Others like myself see beyond that. I see you as a highly intelligent woman that can talk over the heads of some and these some are the ones that may see you as out there in my opinion.

There are probably some on this forum that think I am a know it all because I post regularly and give advice freely, and there are others who appreciate my advice and see me as nurturing and caring. We all have our own perspectives."

I THINK I DESERVE THIS:))
Auds
xoxox

I don't think you're nuts, Auds. You just get a little too caught up in your own thoughts which is why you tend never to properly finish your.......... ;-D

Indeed, sometimes you don't even start them :-DDD

WHAT do you deserve? (who-what-why-where-when-what-where-how???) xoxo

SM you asked, "WHAT do you deserve?"
I can't do all that all at once >> who-what-why-where-when-what-where-how???
WHAT- I deserve to lead a simpler life, for starters. It has been chaotic, challenging, misinterpreted, not appreciated, etc. etc.

I deserve to be around people that are loving towards me.
That's certainly not my cousin or those people that did not understand or care that I was doing this ALL BY MYSELF.

That's it for starters...
Auds
xoxoxox

I thought of this today:

Don't act like a girlfriend unless he actually calls you and refers to you as his girlfriend.

Absolutely, FO. Why on earth give them such a huge reward for barely any work? What message does THAT send, other than 'I'm very easily bought because I'm not worth much'. Good nutshelling. xoxo

THE BUTTERFLY (THE MOST BEAUTIFUL OF ALL 'GOD'S CREATURES :-)
By FunnyOne

auds... I don't do gentle. I just tell it like it is. truth hurts but frankly its better to face the painful truth then live a lie.

I'm doing my own soul searching this past year and a half so it's been a harsh period for me but necessary. growing is painful like many good things (like child birth). just hold on and soon it'll be over.

think of a butterfly, if you forced them out of the cocoon, they would die as their wings develop strength by breaking out of the cocoon.

How Elastic are we????

Chemistry is like an elastic band; we need to keep the tension happening in order to keep the interest and desire going.

Imagine this: youre at one end, he is at the other. He is pulling away and you keep going to him. Therefore the elastic band is always loose. He doesnt want that. He wants the band to be tight. What would happen if you started pulling away???? He would have to come to you, wouldnt he? The band wont break (thats the chemistry)

Cheers, Shiloh :-)

And I've just found my Tapestry analogy, finally! Gypsy had it all this time (It was her fault, mum :-p) :-D)

----------------------------------------------------

SEW IN LUST/LOVE

(The Definition of "A Relationship", aka How We Intertwine (for those who "dunlike Jigsaaaaws"))

Gypsy,

Others who've heard this before can block their ears or groan :-D

My analogy is this:

Imagine each of you as threads who've intertwined (due to the magnetism of Chemistry) with the purpose of 'sewing' a needlepoint picture (the relationship) onto a tapestry canvass (your conjoined life).

There are many different types of threads in this world. Some intertwine comfortably, one or other or both threads cut into the other depending on where they are in the picture and depending upon what happens in life to the tapestry (it can be exposed to the elements, burned, stretched unnaturally (I'm talking life's stressors))... one thread might be finer than the other so has to do more curling around the other or vice versa... one thread might be brighter and more colourful thus change the appearance of the other (or vice versa), etc.

The 'hand' that does the moving and sewing is called Motivation (due to Chemistry) and and care, skill and precision with which the joint thread is woven into the canvass is called Trust.

The more powerful your chemistry together, the faster the hand will sew. (Sometimes it goes so overfast that skill/trust cannot be applied fast enough to keep up and the resultant picture becomes a jumbled mess, meaning you have to unpick it all and start again from the point where it started to get messy ("Hellooooo, yooou :-)))".)

Not enough trust built up to begin with and, likewise, - although the chemistry/motivation remains - the resultant picture can get to look a bit shoddy, a bit 'unprofessional'.

In order to intertwine with another thread you have to get extraordinarily close up, and you get to see each other from all angles as you twist and turn together.

You might be a pro in sewing a tapestry when yours is the sole thread in that picture. The complications occur when another thread is involved. Same for that other thread.

If you pucker, they pucker. If you miss a hole in the tapestry mesh, they miss a hole. If you are pulled too tight, they're pulled too tight with you... Etcetera and vice versa.

At whichever point on the tapestry that one or both threads might fray, pucker, or bite and snap, reveals which specific adult quality or qualities you each lack when it comes to operating that closely with another thread under certain normal life conditions or extra stressful ones. Your maturity, your true adultness, is put to the test, see.

I can clearly see where your particular thread has and is fraying. It's the most common thread design fault there is (and almost everyone on here has suffered from it or still is): IMPATIENCE and INTOLERANCE thus LAZINESS in this context. (His might be the same (it's very likely), it might be different, but here we're talking about you.) To wit:

How do you give and be the better person and just say hey! enough with the games, are we going to do this or not??? I'm having coffee with him tomorrow (LOL it's the weekend) I know we will sleep togrther and still have an hour or two of 'this is waht's going on in my life, or what I will do today). I WANT to shake it up a little. I want us to be honest with each other. We BOTH are hiding from each other, WHY? ****I guess I'm at the point that I KNOW there is more, and I'm tired of the dance. If it continues much longer I will just go with someone else to break the cycle. Even if I'm hurting myself and someone else cuz it's not that I want to be with the person, just to stop the soap opera.****

Translation: I can't doooo this; me wannnit and me wannit NOW-NOW-NOW!....Gimmie or I'll frow my juice all over your nice clean floor, so - mleugh!!! ;-)

How self-effacing is THAT??? Is that a "grown up" attitude?

People who say 'I don't like playing stupid games' are those who are no good at them...because they haven't had enough practise and/or tried hard enough when faced with any opportunity, to master them.

Life demands games; relationships more so. There's *NO* escaping it. But trust me, once that person learns to play these games like a pro, and starts winning, suddenly - as if by magic - ...suddenly that person LOVES games! (- "Bring it on!") Funny, that :-)

and just ***say*** hey! enough with the games

And I know I'm right because I've already said in no uncertain terms that you don't ***SAY*** these things, you ***DO*** them. But you're resisting that advice already. And you're resisting because you know DOING messages takes far longer than just moving your mouth around for a few seconds whilst noises come out of it.

...and you're already soooo tired, aren't you? (Yep. Know how it feels, mate.)

There's something here you SAY you want to achieve. And I'm telling you what is the only way to achieve that. So the question is: do you REALLY, REALLY wannit? ...enough to do the work involved in gettinit?

If not then - ditch him and start a new relationship.

BUT. What if you choose another Him Type (which is altogether highly likely)? What if yours and his conjoined thread snap at the same position in that tapestry when it gets stretched enough that your threads are put under the same type of strain?...or being that close up IS ITSELF the stressor? What skills do you have next time that you don't at this moment possess, that you can employ in order to avoid the relationship going Splat! like this one did? Answer: None... because you haven't learned how to acquire them.

You don't learn by being told how. You learn by DOING it.

Or are you saying you're the type who can learn without doing, meaning that you'll know what not to do as much as what to do during the next relationship?

If you reckon the answer to that is truly Yes, then - fine. But don't then tell us or yourself that this chap is so special to you if he's seemingly so replaceable with A N Other, or that the grief will be so easily and totally surmountable.

And what if you do avoid making the same mistakes in the next relationship due to recognising a heralding of them and having enough wherewithal to deal with them objectively, without getting emotionally overwrought? Even if that involves merely you managing HIS behaviour so well via your own behaviour that you preemptively block HIS mistakes against wreaking damage, and the two of you sail through to the next, deeper relationship level?

How are you going to feel about this current chap then when you look back? Aren't you going to regret NOT having implemented the lesson you 'now' know how to implement - WITH HIM, so that you and he would still be together???

In other words, are you In It To Win It with this current chap (because he's special)... or just any chap?

But - wait a minute! - didn't you say already that you BOTH tried starting over with A N Others already?...which didn't light your respective candles?..a la "Noo-thing com-paaares...2-U"?...and that's why you came back to each other after 2 whole years (never mind the BS that came out of your mouths regarding your reasons)???

You did, actually ;-)

Oh, dear. Looks like you're stuck with learning how to play the game and doing the hard work, dunnit, eh? ;-p

Are you in it to WIN IT to the point where you're prepared to work for it? Or do you want to get it by lifting solely one little finger - or, better yet, handed to you free on a plate ...in Dreamland?

Have a thinkipoos...

But while you're thinking, ask yourself this: At what point in a marathon does a runner get so tired they want to burst into tears of defeat and give up, and 'Sod the trophy and prizemoney!'? Is it the first lap? Is it the middle of the race? Orrrr is it on the final few laps???

Yours,

Little Miss EX-Impatient/Intolerant/Lazy-Arse Soulmate :-) xoxo

PS: Life's a b*tch, ain't it? ;-) ...but the thing about difficult tasks? Easy-peasy once you know how :-)

OMG..SM...there ya go again...spewing all that unnecessary bullsh**. for the love of God and all the DWD women..can u please just put it in simple terms. Just so u know...I do understand some of it...but, for the most part, we are not psychologists, and don't ever plan to be. Women come here for simple (layman's terms advice). Not your amateur long winded psycho babble crap. I have read many of your posts and agreed, but when u speak in a condescending manner to make yourself feel better, it does none of us any good. If you were a professional in the field, maybe it would seem more appropriate, but since your obviously only pretending to be....it would be much better if u spoke on everyone else's level. Thank You:)

Yesbrat,

I'm very interested to know a few things:

If you claim not to understand it then how by any reasonable rationale are you qualified to label it anything, let alone psycho babble crap?

That above tapestry analogy IS in lay terms. There are no scientific or technical terms in there whatsoever. It is a very simple, visual analogy containing no complicated vocabulary or sentance structures, nor any incoherency of thought. I'm sure Gypsy - for whom it was originally posted - would have asked for clarification, had it.

Women come here for support via the written word. There are no rules on how one should deliver one's messages to that end. Those who can understand plain English that incorporates semantics above a kindergarten level, can gain from it, and - going by their comments -consistently do, without experiencing *your* purported level of difficulty. Or would you prefer me to stick to words more commonly found in kids' books?

Also, Condescension is a subtle intonation that first requires understanding of the meaning of the whole message in order to formulate in one's mind an alternative, condescension-free arrangement by which to compare thus positively conclude that, yes, it DOES contain an air of condescension. Therefore, if you don't understand it as you so claim, how on earth can you detect and decipher any condescension???

Furthermore, if your purported frustration is borne from the fact you need support but can't get that from me because of the way I 'talk' when sincere and serious (sorry - when not mucking about), then that begs the question - Why would any note of condescension be significantly more your concern than any potential wisdom contained in the message?

And why are you assuming that I'd have anything to gain from condescension to largely faceless people whom I more than likely will never, ever meet? More than that - why do you assume only negatives about me when you know too little about me to form any meaningful judgement, anyway?

Is this about my messages or is this actually about your feelings towards me?

Are you really that unintelligent to the point of dumb, that you would make a request of someone for solely your benefit, in that highly rude and provocative manner and actually expect that person to respond by happily doing your bidding????? I find that VERY hard to believe.

Who elected *you* spokeswoman for the entire DWD community, anyway? Answer: no-one did. So why don't you, if you're so confident that your claim has any real or valid basis, show that - by not trying to add weight to your opinion as if it came from the mouths of thousands, and instead admit it's solely your own?

...In which case: Hmmmm...*shall* I change a trait of mine to suit one unreasonable, irrational individual....who is highly rude and insulting to boot? Let me just think about that for a-NO. (Tough titty. Try asking people nicely in future. Curiously enough, it actually works. ...although, maybe in actual fact the message was intended merely as a vehicle for rudeness?)

Finally, if in your professional opinion it's nothing more than amateur nonsense and BS, why on earth the frustration at not being able to read thus benefit from it? Benefit?...You??...From pure drivel???

I've never before seen so many confusing contradictions that expose false claims and intentions in terms both regarding the request itself and towards its recipient, in just one short message.

...Oh, wait! - yes I have. (Doh!)

I am SO sorry to exclude you from something you don't see any reason to waste time over, anyway. :-DDDDDDDDDD

Byeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee... (again). (Don't forget to write soon, will ya? (again) ;-D)

xoxo

PS: Just to clarify (just for you): Those were all rhetorical questions.
PPS: That particular name suits you, btw.

Hello girls,

I love this place. A lot of wisdom here. I posted one while back on different thread. I have these "shower epitomes". In the shower I seem to get most synthesized thought process and the best things just pop out of my head. Here is the latest one worth remembering:

"Aren't you tired of not being loved? Start loving yourself."

Good one, Buitifil (and yis giing by yir prifile pic, yiu ire ;-D).

Being loved by anyone non-family is, simply put, this (but unspoken):

"I am totally loveable!" / "I agree; you are".

xoxo

Soulmate,

Thanks,

You are not just incredibly smart and insightful, but very kind. That's pretty darn good and totally adorable. Even though, English is not my first but fifth language, I do enjoy your posts and find them sharp, entertaining and simply brilliant.

Thank-you. And, Yeah, but, no, but ...perfection to that degree is also very disquieting. So I ensure to pepper it with being a total pain in the arse. Is it working? ;-DDDDDD (- and that question was rhetorical 'n all, Yesprat :-DDD) xoxo

Soulmate,

I was totally including that part. If you were goodytwoshoes, you wouldn't get such ovations from me. LOL