"We talked about dating exclusively, but he said that he didn't think that he could make me happy because he always cheats, even when he cares about the girl and that he didn't want to lie to me. But that he wanted us to continue seeing each other"

I don't see or hear any mixed signals there.....Are you sure this is what you would want? You are not going to change him...Don't fall for that one...

Everytime he sees me out, somehow or another he tries to get me to go home with him. I hadn't seen him in about 3 months. He sent me one text once in those 3 months to say "hi" but I didn't respond. Why? B/c I really love him, but I don't want to be a booty call, which pretty much is the only thing he's capable of with any new girl he meets. I've met some of his booty calls. They all fall helplessly in love with him, and he's done with them in 2 or 3 months. I don't know why he keeps coming back to me or why i'm helpless to resist him. When we are together, he is affectionate, and passionate and amazing. And he acts like he thinks I am, too. But once the encounter is over, whether it lasts 10 hours of hanging out, watching tv, sex, playing video games, eating, etc or whether is 24 hours, as soon as I leave his house, or he leaves mine, I don't hear from him, period. Until the next time I run into him out. I am not a needy, crazy bi*** who is so desperate for a man. I don't sit around and cry about why he doesn't want me exclusively. I just daydream about how great we would be together if he would grow up. (Hes in his early 30s.) If he would give it a chance. I have been told over and over again by the people around me that care about me that he's never going to change, to move on. But I'm the type of girl that doesn't give up so easily. He is worth having and I don't even think that he thinks he's worthy. I think he thinks I'm too good for him. Half the girls that he has ever slept with are not attractive, lack class, sleep around, I mean u name it, he has been with them. (Don't judge him. All men want to be players, but most aren't capable) I mean, he's cute, there's no doubt about that but he's not the cutest. He's just very charming and irresistible.
No man has ever made me feel like he does. EVER. (not emotionally, sexually, sensually, etc) So my question is... Do u think he will ever change? I mean will he still be playing women when he's 50? honestly, he never "played me" From the get go I new he was a player. I have tried to "get away or over him" at least 3 times in the past yr and a half. Its no use. he makes me melt. And there is no other guy that I want. Is he really so afraid of falling in love or was that just a cop out? Or is he really happy being a player? Who knows? I would so love to pick his mind. What do you guys think?

Tinker,

I hate to say this, it going to sound harsh...But, to me it sounds like you have gotten played the hardest. The others might of only last two or three months but I find it hard to believe that he was the one that ended it each and every time.

Who knows if he will ever grow up or not. I don't think that anyone an answer that. you have a 50/50 shot and the person you probably should ask is him.

But regardless..it might seem like you are totally in love him and that could be coming from a ton of different places. Maybe it is charm, maybe the sex, maybe the looks and maybe the fact that he is completely unavailable too...

Bottom line, it sounds to me like you need to let him go and move on. There won't be anyone else to come into your life and make you feel that way as long as he is in it...

If you are willing to set yourself aside for him, God knows how long that is going to be going on for...if you are comfortable with that, well then wait.

But, I think that what you really need to ask yourself regardless of his charm and good looks. You are clearly attracted to someone that is very unavailable and has made that perfectly clear. Don't you believe that you deserve better than this?

There are other men out there that can make you feel this way that are available.

xoxoxoxo

What I want is for the guy to fall helplessly head over heels for me. I don't want to be the one to change him. He has to be the one to do that himself. I would love to understand how he thinks and to know more about him. I'm not looking for marriage, just a partner and a best friend. (He's already my lover) There is a lot of history between us but most of all, its the chemistry. After all this time, there is no lack of chemistry between us. Its kind of hard to avoid running into him. We are in the same group of friends, we go to the same bars. There have been times where i've gone out specifically to a bar I know he will NOT be at on purpose so that I can still have a social life without running in to him, and there he will be. And when he sees me, its almost like he knew I was coming and he was waiting there for me even though we hadn't talked in 3 weeks.

I appreciate your words of wisdom. Of course I think I deserve better than this. It may seem like I'm justifying his behavior or even that I'm ok with it. I'm not. But I often times try to imagine where I would fit him in, in my life. He's almost just really convenient b/c my life is so busy without him in it on a daily basis. And I have to focus on those things in my life that keep me busy if I am going to meet my career goals, my future plans, and above all else give my 2 children(boys, 4 & 8) the best care a mother could give them. My life doesn't revolve around this man so to speak. Yes, I adore him. No doubt about it. and Yes I'd love to spend more time with him. But outside of the nights that I go over to his house, time spent with him is time I am not spending with my children. At this point in my life, I don't know if I could have a man around full-time and still give my children the attention and love that they need. I hope u don't think I sound like callous. But he's an adult and can live without me. They are my children and can't

Players are players until they find someone who makes them change their ways... When that girl comes along there won't be any mixed signals, no talk about cheating or "being hurt before" Those things are all excuses for him to sleep with you without the commitment.. I know that you want to believe him when he says he cares and he might care about you as a person but thats not the same as a bf saying he cares... His saying he's been hurt and that he always cheats even if he really likes a girl ETC are all just excuses... and the reason he was upset when you told him you didnt want to do it anymore and the reason he called a few times was because you were his booty call and he was upset that he was losing it and calling in hopes of you answering and giving in...

There's much more to it than just that. The few times we talked about being exclusive, he told me that he knew i was the girl for him. That he didnt know why he was dragging hes feet, that he had been looking for a girl like me. His exact words were. "I'm a jacka**, I know. I may be the least perfect man in the world, but I have always respected you. You are beautiful and I'm always thinking about you. I'm telling this from my heart. Sometimes I feel so stupid because you are such beautiful person and I'm far from you. But at least you know that i have never lied to u. To which I replied, "Then what do you want from me?" And he said, "The question is do you still want to be with me?" And I said, "I want to be more than your lover every 2 weeks." To which he responded,"I have been looking for someone who really loves me, even with all the defects that I have, and I discovered that you are that person. I hope its not too late.... Now either he was just really laying it on thick, or he really cared about me. Nevertheless, things didnt change after that. He talked about it with his close friends who then came to me and told me that he was saying he was ready to settle down with me, that I was the one, but he never said that to me with his own words. And eventually i got tired of waiting, told myself I was so much better than that, went to his house and told him that I couldn't see him anymore. For him to just forget me, and ignore me if he saw me out in order to make it easier to get over him. He was kind of shocked, didn't expect that, it even stung him a little bit, for about a week or so. And that was the way it was for 2 months or so. and then i saw him out one night and wanted to be with him and told him i wanted to be with him and started the cycle all over again. And that's where we are today.

Thank u for ur insight. If it weren't me in the situation, I would think exactly like you. I would tell the girl to get the hell out of the situation. One question though, he can get booty from any girl he wants. Why would he be uspet about losing booty from one girl when you can just call another? I mean if its all the same. Booty is just booty no matter who the girl giving it is. Right?

In the words of Fleetwood Mac, "Players only love you when they're playing."

"All men want to be players, but most aren't capable."

This is NOT true, thank you very much.

Yes, he will be a player when he is 50, even 60 or 70. If he is good at what he is doing, he will continue as long as he can get away with it (i.e. there are volunteers to play with him). I genuinely believe that for 'de luxe’ players, this is the case. He may slow down once he is completely fragile and bed-ridden though, so there is hope, LOL!

In extreme cases, it is a very special combination of selfishness, insecurity and charm that makes a bona fide player. They hone their skills through the years and get really good at what they are doing. This is a life style.

I very recently had a short relationship with a player and pretty much the moment I realised what I had got into, stopped all contact immediately. Unfortunately it does not keep me from sometimes still thinking how wonderful we would have been together, though I know full well, even if we had stayed together my life would have probably been misery. There are a lot of married players, not so much fun for their wives.

It is fun with them if you are playing as well, but once you develop any emotional attachment, it is a different game. The interesting thing about players is that though they look like they don’t want you to be in love with them, they do all the ‘I am not a very good person’, ‘You are too good for me’ and ‘I am not good enough for you’, they actually need you to form the emotional attachment with them as it is a pre-condition for their successful playing.

Dear tinkerbell17, I realise it is a difficult one. I know what I would do (and did) and I can only wish you well in figuring it out for you. Good luck!!!

Thank u for sharing with me. It definitely helps getting all of this advice. I'll figure it out eventually. i'm glad u were able to get away from ur player, I think I have got to change the way that I think. i always look for the best in people. I am kind of nieve in the ways of men and i was very sheltered as a child. I have never dealt with a player before and part of his intrigue to me is that he is such a challenge. I know it soundsawful. My best friend says I must love to suffer. But I'm very picky about who I date. Its very hard for a guy to get me to go out with him much less sleep with him. This guy wooed me for months, as sweet as he could be, in the beginning. I even stood him up once for one of our dates because I thought he liked me too much and I wasn't sure I wanted to get to know him better b/c he was so intense and kept saying how great we'd be together. Of course, he was just trying to get me bed and after I stood him up that nite, he started playing hard to get. Then i wanted him even more.

Words from the mouth of a player mean absolutely nothing. It's his actions you should pay attention to. His actions are lacking. He does not take you on dates apparently, just booty calls and hook ups when you cross paths. You going along with this makes it so easy for him. What have you done to inspire him to change? Why should he? He has it all with no effort put forth. A few calls when you break it off? That's not much.

I have turned a player before. Oh he was a ladies man for sure. I played with him for a short while. That was 2 years ago. He would call last minute or show up where I was at. Once he showed up intoxicated on my door step and I would not let him in. I told him there was a parking lot across the street he could sleep in until he sobered. He was furious with me for that. He would try the late night calling, I would not answer. He could not understand why I did not fall under his spell. The answer, I love and respect myself so much more than that. 2 years later, he says he is in love with me and has been on his knees in tears. Do I budge? Nope. I was in NY with 2 girls from this forum and he was calling me at 3am. Players don't change. You love me at 3am? Spare me please.

I completely ignore his words, it's his actions that tell the story, so tinkerbell if you continue to do the things you are doing and making it so easy for him, chances are good you will always be a booty call. Consider letting go, because some woman may come along who does not make it so easy and this will be the woman if any that will turn his head. The I don't want to be hurt or I am not ready is just excuses as the ladies stated above to allow him to continue his game. Be very careful.

Have u dated other men throughout these 2 years?

I stopped dating him after a few months and have had a relationship with someone else that lasted a year and am again dating, but he keeps popping back up. I have no desire to date him. I did not take him serious. I was not emotionally attached at all. This seems to intrique him for some reason. My point is if you allow them to play you, you will get played. If you don't well then you got thier attention.

I agree with you. I would tell any other person in my situation to run as fast as they could away from him. I have even told myself that. Nevertheless, I eventually cave in when he is around. On several occassions, he has come looking for him or contacted me and I would tell him to get lost because I knew that is what i should do. And then I'd sit around thinking, "he's still attracted to me. he still wants me after all this time. And the sexual tension mounts, (he's the only guy I have slept with since I met him a year and a half ago) and inevitably the next time I see him, he starts whispering sweet nothings in my ear and I melt. Obviously I don't have the willpower that you have but I don't feel like I don't love myself or disrespect myself. I don't always jump everytime he calls. When I don't respond to him, he works harder to get me until I cave. He has told me on many occassions that he loves to be around me, that he has a great time with me, even that I make him forget about his problems when he's with me, blah blah blah. I slways fall for it. I have called him on it many times. He always gives me the same crappy answer. Which is, "I have many problems, you have your own problems, don't want to combine them" "I've never lied to you, am always up front to you about our relationship,and I have always respected you." Yeah, Yeah, whatever.

You seem to be very wise in the way a man thinks. Why do men become players? I mean is it really that fulfilling to sleep with as many women as possible and care as little about any of them as possible for so long? (In his case, its been 14 years since he started his escapades). Now, he says he loved one girl for years. And she broke his heart, He actually looked like he was going to tear up when he told me about her. But that was 5 years ago. She has since gotten married and had a baby. I actually worked with her before I even ever met this boy. At least 3 times that we were together, he brought the subject of her up and said she is the reason that he will NEVER allow himself to love anyone again. That he is too scared of letting that happen to him again. Thing is he would bring it up out the blue. We could be talking about the moon and he would say...do you remember when i told u...blah, blah, blah. Now, as he was telling me this, I'm thinking , OMG, get over it. That was 5 years ago. Everyone gets their heart broken. you pick up the pieces and move on. Well, he's has moved on alright... to every Sally, Ann, Michelle etc. that he could find. Sometimes some of the things he says makes me think he is tired of this way of life. Actually, he has said those same words. His birthday is around the corner and it will be a milestone for him. he cant believe he is going to be 30. He (in my opinion) has a mediocre job, owns nothing, has no equity, is not established, seems to move around alot, doesn't have a college degree, has pretty much no stability whatsoever in his life. Many qualities that would make a woman RUN, RUN, RUN. I don't need him for stability. I am an educated woman(MBA), support myself and 2 kids, own my own house, and I'm very grounded. I am a peacemaker, I am not jealous. Don't have a jealous bone. I have seen him with other girls, and it didn't affect me. Why??? Who knows? I am not one that is going to have a smack down with a girl because she was with my guy. In fact, some of the girls that I know have been with him, I somehow wind up befriending, knowing that they were with him at some point in time while he was dating me. I don't befriend them on purpose. Just kinda happens. I genuinely appreciate your feedback. Sorry to bore u with so many details. I figure that I need to change the ways things are going in my personal life and the only way to do that is to change the way I think. Your insight is helpful to me.

Messing with these types of guys runs like a serious addiction. Has the same effect on us that heroin or coke would have..don't actually have to have one of these addictions to appreciate the process...essentially, what we do is play mind games...at a gut level we know we should endure and go through the withdrawals to reach our greater good...but in the interim we delude ourselves with juicy rationalizations and the like such as the "oh no, but this is different because..." scenario. Okay, there is always that one slim iota of a chance that this situation is different..but odds have it that it's not and you need to decide how much time and energy you're willing to expend with the risk being that it probably WON'T work out in the end...sorry to be a buzz kill, but the odds are against you, sister.

Yeah, I know. Trying to work him out of my system. Wierd thing is, the "lets call it rejection" that I get from him doesn't cause me sadness. you know, like the way you feel when you lose the man you love or after a breakup. it doesn't make me cry, or make me want to jump off a bridge. He was never "mine" so to speak so I never lost him. I feel like I love him. I genuinely care about him. I want the best for him even if he's not with me. I worry about him since he is so sexually permiscuous. I even pray for him. Honestly, most of my friends that are girls are in relationships where the guy has the power, The girl is more in love with the guy, the guy disrespects the girl in one way or another and they are girlfriend and boyfriend. In a way, this guy that I'm all goo goo over has protected me because he won't let me get closer, which has kept me from getting so attached that I can't function in the other aspects of my life. (I have seen many a girlfriend sit around and mope b/c the guy in her life is doing her wrong) That's not me. I'm always on the go. Doing stuff that I like to do and trying to make myself a better person.

So you sleep with only him, but he sleeps with whoever he pleases? I am trying to see your self respect here. I just can't. You pray for him? Pray for yourself. Apparently you love him way more than you love yourself. If you loved yourself, you would be incapable of allowing a man to degrade you that way. It is degrading, very. He puts it in any woman he pleases and then you get the "honor" of having him put it in you? Wow! Isn't he the lucky one to have you putting up with that. If he truly loved you, he would do the right thing and let you go and stop this crap. He loves himself more than he loves you too.

I don't not sleep with anyone else because i save myself for him. Not by any means. I have only met one guy that i am attracted to since i met the 18 month guy. An he is getting married and I would never go there. Not interested in hurting another woman to get what I want. And i am not interested in sleeping around. I never said he loved me. I know he doesn't. Trust me, I do respect myself. The thing is I have always been the "good girl." Have always followed the rules that were set before me. and in the end that didn't get me what I wanted either. Oh yeah, I got the wonderful husband, a nice house, 2 wonderful kids and I was happy, Things were great for about 5 years. And then he decided he didn't want to be with me anymore. And he left. Not a big deal anymore. I'm so over it. Took me a year to get over my husband but I did. And then during that year all I did was take care of kids and work. No social life at all. Before all of that, I wasn't a party girl. Didn't go to clubs. Met my husband in college. In fact, I hated the club scene when I was married. But I decided to give it try one nite and it opened me up to that world of meeting new guys that were interested in me and did want to be with me full- time, (not for sex.) But I wasn't ready to let anyone in. and every time a guy wanted more from me, I pushed him away. Until I met the 18 monther. Well, at first i pushed him away too, which made him woo me more, and then after about 2 months or so, he started playing hard to get which made me more interested. With any of the guys I dated after my divorce, I wasn't trying to play any game. I didn't know how to play the game. I just didn't like the emotional pressure I felt when one of the guys I dated wanted to be exclusive. It wasn't sexual pressure because I wasn't sleeping with them. It was them wanting so much from me so soon. Before the 18 monther, this same scenario happened 3 times. It made me completely not want to be with the guy. So lets say that I do love myself. I am very level= headed. I'm worthy of everything I have ever dreamed of. And I do think I will get it. I'm going through a sexual peak. a discovery if u will that I didn't have before. Please don't judge me because my behavior with the 18 monther makes you want to puke. You obviously have some gret insight. Why do you think i'm here, I know I am on the wrong path. I'm trying to figure out how to change it. You don't have to belittle me. I'm sure he loves himself more than me or anyone for that matter. But I don't know any man, even the really good ones who are so wonderful to their girl, simply becuase they love her. they are doing it because they are trying to fill a need that they have. In the end, it is still all about him. in trying to please a girl, he's tring to get his own satisfaction.

I am not meaning to belittle you, sorry. I am not implying that you should sleep around, I am implying that you should not continue to sleep with a man that sleeps with countless others. I am in my sexual peak as well, but never in a million years would I give so much of myself for so long who was not giving me the same in return.

You deserve a man who is present for you in your life, a man who sleeps with you and you only and considers it special and sacred. You deserve a man who picks you up, takes you on dates and adores you and you only. A man living in his truth and not in a world of lame excuses. A man that calls you in the evening because he genuinely loves you and wants to know how your day went. A man that would drop everything if you were in trouble.

What you have is a man who gives you encounters, no dates. A man that does not see sex as unique to you and you only. A man that will take from you and not give back except between the sheets.

So why are you here? If you know you are on the wrong path, turn around. Instead you continue to justify your one sided relationship with this man. You see him as protecting you because he won't let you get closer. That is not protection, that is his way of justifying what he is doing to you in his own mind. Then when you crash and burn he will be able to say with a clear concious that he did not lead you on and you knew the stakes, which you did.

I hope you do realize you deserve everthing you ever dreamed of, I also hope you realize it does not come in the form of a player and he has all the signs of a true player. Boys will be boys. They always value that which they work hardest for. You have not made it hard for him in the least. Resisting on occasion does very little if you always end up caving in. He knows he has you, he can hook up and have these encounters probably without so much as even a phone call. What happens when that woman comes along that meets him with resistance? The one that can outplay him. That is the one he will fall for. The one that treated him so well and loved him so much will be left behind. When men say to you that they are not ready or that it's not you it's me, or I don't want to be hurt, what they are saying in essence is it's just not you. You have not inspired me to commit.

Robin, what you said is SO true.

I am/was dating a NON-player. I was the one that was not into him.
I feel just AWFUL that after I reluctantly acccepted his offer to cook for me, when he was at my home after dinner - I threw him out!

I feel gawd-awful that I did this. But yesterday, I was sooo busy with my traffic ticket and 8-hr. online Defensive driving course.
I was wiped after that but it was important to me.

I never had a speeding ticket! I thought my car insurance was going to go sky-high and that perhaps they would DROP me. I had too much on my plate... but he insisted and then I...Ugh!... accepted.
What a nightmare for Frankie!

He should have just let me beeee. But he said he missed my kisses.
He had called in AC. He thinks...well..NOW thought...I was exquisite.

I needed my alone time. I needed to clean up, rethink, chillax and he didn't let me. So, I lashed out at him when I couldn't take it any more.

I left a voice mail for him this morning but I got NO REPLY.
If he gives me a chance to respond, I will give him one.

Ugh...Ugh...Ugh...
Auds
xoxox

What am i doing here? I'm trying to figure out how not to be so into him. How to get over him. I have never dated a player before. Really didnt know much about those types. (ok, I used to be pretty clueless about all the sex world) I had been married since I was 22, and though my husband was not my first, I can count on one hand the lovers I had had before him. I do not watch porn, or put effort into learning the world of casual sex. And yet I know more about it today than I did when I got divorced. The girls I work with make fun of me, (in a joking matter) of the fact that I had never heard of some of the sex terms they use, or seen a dildo in real life. Having said all that, the best sex i have ever had has been with mr. 18 months. I have never had sex like that before, and it was exhilarating. And it has never been wham, bam, thank you man. He is mr. cuddler and chit chatter before and after sex. I have never felt used. Just disappointed when I didn't hear from him after. What i need are some tools, a plan, something that can help me to understand how he thinks, and that can help me get him out of my system. You have information that I know can help me. I don't know what strategy to take to forget about him. Avoiding him wont be completely possible as we have several friends in common. (One of them just stopped by my house to show me the costumes they bought for halloween. (hers and mr. 18 monthers) Anyway, i have already tried that. I cut it off earlier this yr. That lasted for 2 months. Then we hooked up again during the summer. and then i was like okay Im not gonna leave my house until im over him. That didnt work. I made a conscious effort to avoid him which worked for about 3 months. (I still ran into him, but just avoided the hooking up thing for that long) Each time I skirted around him, the next time he just it on laid on thicker. So obviously, I need a new strategy. Please understand I am not upset, depressed or going bonkers by any means. I just know that I deserve better and that I won't get better until I break this bad habit or he stops being an immature a**. Which we both know he won't do. He enjoys the life he like he has it. So what pointers can u give me? and thank you for trying to help me.

I know it's hard to get over someone you love. I have done that recently. The only way is to cease all contact, get all reminders of him out. You don't have to stay home, but you may need to change up your routine. You may have to step out of your comfort zone and even seek new friends for now. It's really hard in the beginning. Just embrace the pain and walk through it. You already know he is not good for you and you deserve more. The last 2 times you tried, I suspect you did not let go and held onto hope. You have to choose to let go. I am in month 4 of no contact and now I am ok. I now look back and see how wrong he was even though at the time I thought he was so right. He was not a player, he was an emotional retard who had a problem with any intimacy outside of the bedroom or perhaps he just was not ready, I have no clue nor do I feel the need to know any longer. It takes time.

Just know that you will get over him. Start looking for joy in other things. I now can enjoy the company of other men, but before this was possible I had to let go of my now ex so my arms would be open to recieve that which I do deserve. Know also that something better is out there and think of how good it will be when it finds you. I am excited about my new life now after what's his name, scary sometimes yes, but I can do this and so can you. You can email me anytime my username here at yahoo. I hate to see women suffer, just hate it and as you can tell I am very passionate about it.

Also if you choose no contact go over to break up thread and find the no contact thread and chime in and tell your story. Wonderful women over there who are going or have gone through this. The support will help you. Go over there asap and start reading. 5 of us who started on that thread just spent a weekend together and we had a blast, met for the first time and it was priceless. There is life after what's his name, I promise, it just takes time and strength.

Thank you very much for all of your advice. I definitely plan to do something about my situation. I will keep you posted.

Tinkerbell,

Seems like you and I have been dating the same guy.

Very good looking, funny, smooth, always sweet and always says just the right thing, very romantic, very loving in bed, even holds your hand, opens your door, pulls out your chair.....wow....but can't commit for understandable reasons, always honest and upfront with you, seemingly tries to spare your feelings, tells you he wishes he could be a better man, tells you you are beautiful, wonderful, etc., but only sees you to have sex basically....no meeting your family, or taking you to his family functions, prefers to call you--not the other way around, etc. I was/am in love with a guy like this.

When I read your comments, I see myself. I am also very naive (not so much now, I can tell you). I was married for a long time, did not sleep around before or after my divorce until I met this guy. He apparently has done this a lot because he knew exactly what to say to me. Anyway, I am not in contact with him any longer. I did fall in love with him, but like Robin said, I decided I wanted more for myself, so I told him. I really thought at that time that he cared for me, maybe even loved me. Like you, I thought he just couldnt stay away from me. I thought that when I told him I wanted more, he would "man up". He didn't. He said we were friends. But guess what? Apprently we were only friends when I was sleeping with him because I have not heard from him in quite a while--since I told him that I could not continue just sleeping with him in a fwb way because I am looking for a real relationship.

It hurts a lot but what Robin is telling you is true. It's much better to have your self respect and be open to a relationship with a quality guy. I know how it hurts. I had never met anyone who made me feel the way this guy did. I guess that's why they call them players.

Robin, I have read a lot of your comments but for some reason did not know you had the same experience with a player. Did you continue to think that he would "man up"? Sometimes I find myself thinking that he will jump on the white horse and come galloping along to tell me he really does love me. Sounds so pathetic when I type out the words. I would love to hear more from people who have been through this.

Good grief Charlie Brown! Finding a good man is like finding the Great Pumpkin.

The Player I dated has tried to man up. I was not into him, never was and I think that is what drove him crazy. They want what they can't have. I never took him serious, I just played him right back. He sent me a text last night that he loved me. Its been almost 2 years and he is still trying. Whatever, he also has a crazy woman in his life that has now started calling me. Poor soul.

I did just remember my love affair when I was in my 30's though after all these postings. It was just like what you ladies describe. We would be together at night and he would tell me "I want you and not just for tonight", but then he would just vanish for weeks, sometimes months, then pop back up again. I stayed in this yo yo crap off and on for 4 years, never completely getting him off my mind. I married, seperated after 6 years and it started again. This time I was smart enough to see him for what he is, an emotional retard and finally he is out of my system, so much so that I did not even think about him with posting on this thread. So know this ladies, you can move on and let go, he will one day be just a distant memory.

I think it makes it easier to get over the 'nobody has ever made me feel like that' when you realise that a player is a pro; his whole lifestyle is based on making women 'feel like that', there is an army of women who he makes 'feel like that'. So don't take it personally. This approach hurts, but also makes it easier to deal with at the same time. At least to me.

Some other observations on players (based on my one-off short experience and a lot of reflection):

Firstly, he raises the game. They seem to have a very sophisticated approach. . In my case, the player started by very subtly and decidedly carefully tangling the remote possibility of the elusive future in front of me. But even more cleverly, he presented the challenge of an almost impossible task of winning the heart of a man who according to his own admission never falls in love, who wants it all and by all he actually means all. His taxing requirements could sufficiently be met only by a Nobel Prize winner who moonlights as a supermodel. I enthusiastically took the bite, raised to the challenge. In the hindsight, I seem to myself more like a circus monkey, who simply jumps higher when told to. My lesson: if it feels like an audition, graciously bow out.

Secondly, he is very complimentary. So what did he tell you? Mine told me that I was amazing, smart, strong, fun, sweet, insightful, intellectual, terribly interesting, stunning, totally unique and very sexy, well the list goes on and I am sure you all can top it. We need to learn to tell it to ourselves that we are all of these things, we do know that we are all these things. So next time any of us meets a player and he goes into pointing out our collection of desirable attributes, we will go in our head 'Tell me something I don't know and most importantly, SHOW me'. This where the player stumbles, he will do everything right when he is with you because this is part of his repertoire. But there is no consistency and no relationship development, no actions that actually show he is thinking of you when you two are not together.

Thirdly, for me the most important lesson is to listen more closely to what he says about himself. As much as I pride myself in always seeing the best in human beings, if somebody tells me themselves that they are not very nice people, it is probably best to take this information on board. And that is again a typical player behaviour, they are probably secretly worried about their karma :). So if they have told you that they are not good enough for you, they have rid themselves of any responsibility. If they are saying they are no good, listen and act accordingly.

Players are only fun if all you want to do is play as well.

What did mr. 18 months tell me? That I was beautiful, amazingly and intriguingly innocent of which completely thrilled him, that I was very good in bed, (never expected that one because I was pretty inexperienced when I met him) (He taught me everything I know) Ummm.. that I was the woman for him, that he wanted to live with me, that I was so nice, blah blah blah....... Oh, and he was the one to start the subject about how much he cared about me. He sent me a text one night saying that he wanted me to know how much he care about me. Out of the blue. He would visit me at work announced. I can't believe I have let it go on for 18 months. I have not talked to him in a week, but it doesn't hurt me because I'm used to it. The next time he approaches me I thought about telling him that I didn't feel like having sex that night but when I had the urge I'd give him a call. Right this second that is what I feel like. Absolutely no desire to sleep with him but to make him wish he could. The last time I slept with him, it was because I wanted SEX. It had been 3 months and he had already come looking for me 2Xs before and I just kept avoiding the subject everytime he approached. However, by the 3rd time, my hormones were raging and I knew I could get it if I wanted to. It backfired on me though. Because I had had almost no contact for 3 months, and I was in a better place emotionally, spiritually, physically, etc. I didn't think about him anymore each day first thing in the am. My thoughts drifted to him less during those 3 months. I could actually go a week without thinking about him at all. And now, after sleeping with him once again, my concentration has been fu**** up. I have not been able to study, which is what I need to be doing. I would sit to study and then 30 mins later, I'm thinking about him. And I was more determined than everthat this time I was not going to give up on winning him over. WTF ever. I got on the net looking for info on how to land a player, and I ended up here. Started reading all the comments that all of u have told me and my focus left him and was refocused to all the info. you guys have been telling me. And then, on the inside, I started fuming and still am. WhO the hell does he think he is? And Why the F*** do I let him do this to me? And all I want to do when I see him in pop him one. And I'm the one to blame. I mean yeah he's an ass. I know. but I knew that. I hope this time around I have the willpower to tell him to F*** off. For Good!!! Who knows. Hopefully I won't get horny anytime soon because I won't just go find someone else to have sex with, and I know I can get sex from him. That seems to be the only thing he is good at. I don't know what is going to happen but I have got to put an end to this. I have to abolish all hope that lingers inside of me that this will ever be more than it is. I know I can attract other men. I'm not worried about that. But the next time around I'm going to be like....I need a background check on you first and then maybe you can talk to me. Anyway, girls its always good getting insight from you guys. I hope one day my advice to another in need will help them. B/C you all have helped me. :)
Talk to u soon!

I need advice. It has occurred to me to send him a text basically telling him to F*** off. If I were to do that I know he would not approach me ever again when he sees me out. I would risk however, possibly, the friendship of a mutual friend. Don't know how she will react. Because he will surely show her the text. The last time I broke it off with him, I was all sweet, nieve and innoncent about it. This time it would be like :GO F*** yourself. I know it won't bother him about not having sex with me anymore but I don't know if he would talk bad about me or start rumors. Ive never, ever been stern with him so I'm sure he would take me seriously and never try to get me in his bed again. I need advice because I'm running on emotions right now and I don't want to be irrational but I never want to feel anxiety like I felt this week, EVER AGAIN!!!

My response may be slightly different from what other ladies would offer. I never do bad language. Ever. In my view it is much better to be assertive in your behaviour rather than throw around aggressive and rude/vulgar language. I personally feel better about myself if I do not sink to the level of inflammatory expressions.

I would say that I do not enjoy this liaison any more and tell him to never contact me again. And then completely block off any contact, so he sees that you absolutely mean it. If you need to rant, rant here.

Thanks. I don't usually curse either. My adrenaline is pumping right now. So you do think its viable to send him the text? I have to find away to not give in and if he thinks i'm serious about not wanting anything from him, he will not try to get me to cave. It wouldn't be worth the work to him. I need to close this chapter and if he thinks there is even a remote possibility that I will sleep with him, he will lay on his charm. But if he doesn't, then he will completely ignore me. Which in the end will serve in helping me to get over him.

Don't sent it in the evening, it may come across as some kind of whim or he may think you are tipsy. Send it in the cool light of the day.

Just a question, considering the nature of the relationship, do you need to send him anything at all? Why not just make this decision and stick to it? Do you feel you need a closure? Do you feel you owe him that?

It is in principle OK to send it as long as you are clear why you do it and even more importantly that you will absolutely stick to it. You will come across pretty pathetic to him (and much more importantly to yourself!) if you send the text and will soon fall under his charm again. So if you are sending it as a disciplining thing to yourself, that is probably quite clever.

Whatever he responds to it do not respond, the no contact starts once you push the send button for your text.

If I don't do something to stop the viscious cycle, it will just continue. As long as he thinks that I want him, when he wants me, he will try to get me. If I tell him to get lost, he is not even going to approach me if he sees me out because he's not going to risk me rejecting him. But in telling him to get lost, I have to be harsh becuase I've already tried to do it in a very polite and soft matter. And it really didn't work.

Believe me I have already made the decision on several occassions that I was done sleeping with him. And I have not been strong enough to stick to it. He knows that he has power over me. Even when he meets resistance from me, he knows exactly all the right words to say to convince me that he really cares about me and wants to be with me. As far as it being a disciplining thing for myself, yes, it will help me stick to my guns so as to not make a fool out of myself. However, If I do send him the text and not chicken out, I know that it is going to be a rough go of it for awhile if only because I will have to stop going out so I won't risk running into him. Not only that, one of my best friends (a girl) is also one of his best friends and she may get mad at me just because what I want to write to him is pretty harsh (but also very true). So I risk losing her friendship. Mr. 18 months is not going to care at all that he will no longer be able to be with me. But the whole point of me sending the text is so that he will not approach me ever again. I have let 3 of my friends that know about the situation read the text I want to write him and they all said send it. One of them said I should even wait until his birthday and send it on his birthday(which is next friday). I want to get past him, and it just seems to me that some drastic measure has to be taken. I've already tried to sit back and stick to no more mr. 18 months.

I absolutely need closure and no I don't feel like I owe him ANYTHING. I run the risk of him starting rumors about me. I have no idea how he'll react. I may never know. But what would be worse, me continuing to pine over him like a fool, or me losing one of my best friends, me being talked about by who knows who for how long. I don't know. Maybe nobody from his group of friends will ever know besides the girl that we are both mutually close to. He may be so shallow or immature that none of the words that I write to him even sting a little. There's no way to know that until it has already happened. But I'm so tired of wanting to be somewhere I'm not wanted or around people that don't want me around. The only reaction that I am trying to get from him is that he not approach me when he wants to be with me.

Once I do send the text, the only healer will be time. The longest that we have gone without some king of contact is a month or so. and the longest its been that we have gone without sleeping together is 3 months. I want to be free of this burden. I can't move away for at least another year until I finish school. (I plan to move to find a better paying job once school is done. A decision made even before I ever met him)

So I will have to endure another year here and I don't want to do it in the same fashion that I have done it for the past 18 months.

OK, send him the text. Don't wait until his birthday, then it will feel as if you are making a dramatic gesture. But you are not, you are claiming your life, your self-respect back. If you lose one of your closest friends over it, so be it. If she does not support you over that she is not a very good friend to start with!!!

It will be hard and you will have to make some sacrifices and feel sad, lonely and even empty, but you will be living a self-honouring life. Your priority should be YOU, nobody takes care of you if you don't, nobody will respect you if you don't, nobody will love you if you don't.

Finish this chapter in your life and take some time to (re)build up your self-esteem. Don't look for it from men and even friends, look for it from within. Read books and not just about dating and men, but about self-esteem, because, my dear tinkerbell17, that is the key to everything.

I know you can do it!!! I wish you all the love and happiness!!!!!

Hi Tinkerbell.. Just wanted to say I did something similar to this as a way to finally get rid of my ex husband after 20 odd years of his lying cheating crap and feeling like he would never leave me alone to get on with my life, always popping back up and pulling my strings (we had 3 kids)... Eventually I decided it was the only way to do it and to stop him selfishly assuming I would always be there or that he could fall back on me or weedle his way back in, even after years apart sometimes

The only thing I would say is be prepared that it WILL work, especially if your text content is explosive..The info I delivered to my ex would have been a huge blow to him but that was why I did it, I wanted to make sure I closed off that avenue of thinking in his head and ended it for good. So if you dont mean it, dont send it! Since I delivered a certain truth to my ex, he has never really spoken to me again and probably never will.. at our daughters 21st party he did not even say hello, its been 5 years now but Im not bothered lol, hes my past now, yes father to my girls but nothing to me thank goodness

So for me this method worked a treat and I have never regreted it as I knew I was ready and what I was trying to achieve; to get him to leave me alone for good, which he has done ever since

Are you really ready? There will be no more waiting and wondering once its gone..the chapter will be closed. His reaction is not your problem. Anyone says anything about it to you, hold your head high and dont discuss it. Do so only with those you trust implicitly to support you (like us on here) and no one else. If your friend takes the huff and takes sides, so be it.. You can only explain you had your reasons and do whats best for you

Good luck with it if you decide to go ahead, if your sure there is no hope or no way you can just cut the ties by no contact then it will have to be sent and it will give you a point to move on from, forwards.

Hope you find some peace xx

I call it burning bridges. If you burn that bridge you will not be able to cross it again. I have used that tactic many times in life. You know what's best for you and you know it's not this man, so burn the bridge down and don't look back and don't call the fire department. If you want go under break ups here and go to no contact, there are many women there going through the pain together and the support there saved me 4 months ago.

I totally understand you Tink. We sound so much alike and our players sound alike too. BTW, I did not mention that I work with mine, which makes it very hard. Fortunately we work for a large company and only occasionally run into each other. Anyway, I decided to send my playboy a text telling him that I didn't think it was a good idea for me to be with him without an exclusive relationship anymore and being the nice, sweet, naive girl that I am, I didnt want it to be harsh, and I admit that I secretly hoped he would "man up", jump on the white horse and gallop over and lay claim to me. HA He did try to keep me for a couple of weeks by calling and texting, but eventually he pretty much disappeared. He never really said anything to address my reason for not seeing him anymore.

I do agree with the comments on here that first you should be sure you won't see him again. Write the text, make it very clear and tell him you are done and will not see him again period and save it for a couple of days until you are sure, then send it and stick to it. It's really the only way to stop the hurt and anxiety you are feeling. I would wake up thinking about him every morning and not be able to sleep at night. Was he thinking of me? Absolutely not I'm sure--except maybe to think of ways to get me to bend to his will. I think women like us are easy prey for these guys. It's because we are so trusting and naive that they are able to do this. I don't know about you, but I don't want to stop being this way but I'm sure this experience has changed me and I will be much more cautious next time. BTW, he always told me how trusting I was like it was a wonderful thing. I'm sure he was thinking...what an idiot! It really hurts me that he did this to me and I feel sorry for him that he missed out on a great woman. He will be old and alone by his own choice.

BTW, stay on this site, go back and read all the comments. These ladies are so insightful. They have given me the courage to keep going and know that I am worth so much more than even I thought. This is a very special group of women. Hang in there!

I think the important question that needs to be addressed is:
Why do you even want to date a player?

Sounds like you are just asking for trouble.
Do you want trouble???

Well you really don't want to date a player. I certainly didn't and after dating one, I can assure you that I never want to again. Problem is that by the time you find out that they are players, you have already fallen for them. They are very, very good at making that happen. It's like they put you under some kind of spell. Then they even make you doubt yourself and think you must be crazy when you start figuring them out. Even when I realized he was a player, I still thought that I was different and special to him, not like all the others. Like we had a magical connection and he would not let it go when I walked away. It's all an act. I think they just want you to want them. They are not capable of anything more. I don't understand what makes them this way but I suspect that it's because it works so well for them with plenty of women. That's why NC works so well. You can't see very clearly until you are looking at from a good distance. Do I sound bitter today? Sorry, don't mean to. It's just one of those days.

OMG you wrote exactly what I was thinking. By the time I realized he was a player I was already invested in him. I'm so nervous about sending him the text. Should I tell our mutual friend about it before I send it to him because I know that if he tells anyone, it will be her. Just to give her a heads up so she will understand whare I am coming from in case he shows her the texts? I so wish I could just walk away and not have to take drastic measures in order to become me again. I was so carefree and just having a lot of fun before I met mr. 18 months. I have already tried so many times to get over him. It just hasnt worked.
I so want to get past this. And focus on the positive things in my life.

If you trust her. If she tells him what you are doing then you might as well tell him yourself. If you don't tell her and then he asks her, she will say...I don't know, she hasn't said anything to me...which adds a little more mystery I would think. I know you don't want to take drastic measures. Neither did I. That's why I made my text so sweet and kind. I didn't want to seem mean and truthfully, I didn't want to close the door completely. He has always told me how sweet and good I am so I couldn't be mean--could I? (BARF) Honestly I don't know if I did the right thing or not. Here's what happened though....I sent him the text...he increased his calling and texting for about a week. He talked me into going out to dinner. We went back to his place. I did not sleep with him. He called me a couple more times after that--with me being happy and sweet and friendly each and every time. He never addressed what I said about not wanting just an FWB relationship anymore but suddenly just stopped calling/texting. I admit I have texted him a couple of times in the past few months but he is obviously not interested even though he is polite and he answers me. So...all I can assume is that he was only interested in sleeping with me.

I'm not saying you should be mean. I am not the one to advise on that. I find it very hard to say mean things to people. So I just chose to keep my dignity and hold me head up high and move on.

I hope the other women on here will give you advice on exactly what to say to him. All I can do is tell you that I know exactly where you are coming from. I'm sure you feel with every fiber of your being that you are special to him and in the back of your mind you think he wont let you go. I honestly hope that happens for you. You sound like a lovely person. What you are thinking of doing--letting go--will give you the answer.

BTW, I was as happy as could be before I got messed up with this guy too. Being hung up on him caused me to be distant from my family and friends--not healthy. I went through a state of depression and withdrawal. Love should add happiness to your life--not send you to a place like that. After being away from him for a while, my attitude is much improved. Life seems full of possibilities once again. :)

As for aggressive/mean/rude behaviour, if you resort to it you actually show that you are out of control; it is actually dispowering.

sunshine1962 and tinkerbell17, there is a third option apart from submissive/passive/sweet and aggressive/mean. This is called assertiveness, where you can calmly politely but firmly establish your boundaries. You are going to achieve most using this approach. If you are not used to it, I very much advise you to learn to use it and you will see how much more you achieve both in your personal and professional lives.

There is a lot of info on assertiveness on the net. Just for a taster one that I stumbled at:
http://www.livestrong.com/article/14699-improving-assertive-behavior/

Also, don't talk to your girlfriend about it. It is not really her business, if she asks later, say you don't want to talk about it.

I probably will do nothing at all. I feel too vulnerable and sensitive because I care about him. I just dont understand why this is the way it has to be. It really sucks.

Oh, tinkerbell17, I KNOW it sucks. You were so full of beans, what happened? Are you going to continue this relationship?

You know, whatever you decide, we are here to support yet, if you cannot break up with him yet, don't worry, nobody is going to think any less of you, we will support you nevertheless, we just have faith in you that you will figure out what is best for you sooner or later. You deserve to be happy, that is the bottom line.

All the women on this board understand your pain. We just think the sooner you get though with it, the sooner you can start to embrace a happier life and find true love.

Lots of love,

Wise_until_it_happened_to_me

I just have to come to terms that once I send him the text, that will be it. And though I know that is better, I enjoy my time with him so much. On the other hand, its not enough to know that he's attracted to me. I want more. And he isn't capable of giving it to me. I have to accept that. As you know, originally I wanted to send the text telling him to go F*** himself. Now I just want to tell him in a nicer way to respect me enough to not to try to get me to sleep with him when he sees me out and thinks I look so great. Or when he's lonely at 3am and wants companionship. I do so well when I haven't seen him for awhile. I can function and have fun with my kids, and do so many other things. This week ALL I have done is have anxiety over him. I don't ever want to go through this again. I want it to be done.

I wish you strenght, tinkerbell17! There is a special no contact thread under breakup forum where women who have recently ended their relationships support each other. You will find so much help and inspiration there.

im so sad today. in the whole time ive known him, i have never gotten sad about him. i dont know why this time i did. i don't know if i should even bother contacting him. He won't react. This really is driving me nuts.

I have decided that i definitely won't text him. its too risky. I'm not putting all my feelings in written word so he can read them and laugh, or smirk, or do absolutely nothing at all. I put a reminder in my phone on wednesday and saturday nites (going out nites) (nites I most surely will run into him if I go out) that says Don't forget how shi*** u felt the last time. Hopefully that in itself will remind me, especially when he tries to talk to me again, how horrible I have felt this past week after our last "encounter" I NEVER WANT TO FEEL LIKE THIS AGAIN. Its brutal. And when it rains, apparently it pours. I'm frustrated with my ex a little bit just because he so dadgum insensitive and with his brother because about 2 months ago, his brother who I used to consider a good friend drank a bit much, and hit on me. I was pissed and still am. Stopped communicating with him almost altogether. I don't think he even remembers it and maybe he has no idea why I don't want to talk to him. He tried to ask me one time why i was mad but I don't want us to be friends again so i just walked off when he asked me. Have no desire to ever be friends with him at all and since I'm cold and distant he has been really rude the last few times Ive seen him. Doesn't hurt my feelings, but makes me wary of how we are going to get through thanksgiving & christmas get togethers. I have no desire to talk things over with him because he's an ass. I have lost complete and total respect for him even if he was drunk and nothing even happened. Im just so mad that he even tried. Please. Yuck. My exhusband doesn't know. And it really doesn't even matter. I wish I could just wave a magic wand and disappear. I'm so tired of this sh**. Its such an emotional drain. Where is the light at the end of tunnel? I wonder why I'm so emotional. It must be my hormones b/c I'm not normally sappy like this. Mr. 18 months was the trigger but he's not the only reason. I wish I could get him out of my mind, heart and soul. I don't want to talk to anyone and work this weekend was so frustrating. :(

Well, its been awhile since I've posted. I have had no contact with Mr. 18 months. For the first time ever, I actually told myself its time to move on. He's a jerk and he doesn't care about you. Its been 3 weeks since I last saw him. I haven't gone out but not because I was trying to avoid him. My ex and I work different shifts. When I get off, I go for the children and he goes in a couple of hours later. Anyway, that's why I haven't gone out. No babysitter. So I've had no contact. The first week after our last encounter was brutal. I couldn't concentrate on my studies at all. I litteraly was a basket case. Have never reacted like that in the whole time I've known him. Luckily, I have a few very close friends who listened to me moan and whine and somehow I got through the 1st week. The 2nd week I was determined to focus and get him out of my mind. I did ok until last wednesday b/c I hadn't been concentrating or thinking about him much, and a bunch of our friends were going out to celebrate his birthday. I got the invite (not from him) but of course I didn't go. I didn't even respond at all. Then Friday of last week came. It was his birthday. I got a text from a mutual friend that they were throwing a party for him and I should go. I didn't respond or go to the party. I never even told him happy birthday. (Last yr, I spent his birthday with him) So, needless to say, Friday was a hard day. On thursday, I was texting a mutual friend of ours about whatever. It didn't have anything to do with him. Anyway, she texted me, oh, BTW, I'm with Mr. 18 months, he says to say hi. Again, I didn't respond. I got pissed. He's got a phone. Pick it up if you want to say hi. Don't be such a wuss. That is what went through my head. Of course, I said nothing of the kind. I just didn't respond. Anyway, sorry I'm rattling. I got through friday. This week (3rd week,) I saw pictures of us on FB that someone took of us 3 weeks ago. It stung b/c we look so happy in the pics, but then I saw the pics of him on his bday with some new girl(go figure) and heard that they were dating now. It didn't sting so bad. I am used to that. But I was extremely busy studying for an exam this week, and I had already gotten in my head that I had to focus, and to forget about him. It worked for the most part. I was actually getting through the day without thinking about him, and asking God to help me GET OVER HIM. I mean enough already. You know? And Yesterday I actually told my best friend, who of course knows the whole story, that I had decided it was time to get over Mr. 18 months. Her response was "easier said than done." And I replied, "no, Its time." I even have reminders in my phone that go off on WEDs and Saturdays with the message, "don't forget how shi**y you felt the last time."

Ok, now to my new dilemma. Tonite, I texted a friend(call him Bob) of ours who was acually my friend months before he ever met mr. 18 months. We used to work together, and when his contract ended where we work, I got him the job he has now. (I have never spoken to Bob about Mr. 18 months.) Anyway, I texted Bob to ask him about another friend of ours(mike) that I haven't heard from in awhile who also used to work with us. I know that Bob is friends with Mr. 18 months, but so are several of my other friends. It is not strange for me to text Bob. We have been good friends for almost a year and he adores me(platonically). I haven't talked to him though in a couple of weeks, and I was trying to look up another friend (mike) that we used to hang out with. Well, Bob never answered my text. At 12:30am, my alarm went off reminding me not to forget how shi**ty I felt the last time I saw Mr. 18 months and 24 mins later I got a text from Mr. 18 months. It simply said "Hi, how have you been?"

I didn't answer it, though. I wanted to text him, "WTF do you care?" or something like, "What's wrong, can't find anyone to have sex with tonite?" Then, I told myself, "Oh, no. He is not doing this to me again. He's gonna have to work harder." It made me so mad and of course happy at the same time. (pathetic, I know) I had made up my mind that I was getting over him. Period. And then he texts me. He has not tried to contact me in 3 weeks. Is it possible that Bob told him I texted him? I mean, 20 mins after I texted Bob, MR. 18 months texts me after 3 weeks of no contact. There is no way that that is a coincidence. Is it? And my text to Bob was not anything to get excited about. I just asked him a question about another friend. So, did I do right by not responding or should I tell him not to contact me anymore. I mean, look at the effect he has on me. All this over a stupid, little text. When I didn't respond, he probably texted 3 other girls. I know the facts. But my flesh does not want to obey. I have not reacted, well, as far as he knows, I haven't. Only u guys know I am reacting. How would u handle it? How am I going to get this guy out of my system?